1. Standard memberknightmeister
    knightmeister
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    15 Jun '08 23:21
    For those of you who are determinists and believe that knowing someone's future timeline excludes free will..........

    If Hitler really did have free will and actually made free choices about what he did (for arguments sake) then what difference would we notice?

    Would we be able to tell by looking at his future timeline?

    Would knowing what the future held for (free will)Hitler in 1945 make any difference?

    Would Hitler's free will have been restricted by our knowledge of his future?

    We live at a different point in time from 1945 and view 1945 from a different "angle" .So would the information we hold in 2008 actually stop Hitler having free will?

    Is there anyway that (free will)Hitler could fool us or "beat" us in such a way that we would not know his future?


    Overall , I don't see how any of these questions can be answered "yes" , therefore I don't see how just us knowing his future excludes the possibilty he could have been making free choices. Therefore , I just don't see how God knowing our future timelines excludes our free will either.
  2. Standard memberknightmeister
    knightmeister
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    20 Jun '08 22:07
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    For those of you who are determinists and believe that knowing someone's future timeline excludes free will..........

    If Hitler really did have free will and actually made free choices about what he did (for arguments sake) then what difference would we notice?

    Would we be able to tell by looking at his future timeline?

    Would knowing what th ...[text shortened]... I just don't see how God knowing our future timelines excludes our free will either.
    Why no responses?
  3. Standard memberBosse de Nage
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    20 Jun '08 22:21
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    Why no responses?
    It's only been 20 minutes.

    I think Hitler's free will was about as circumscribed as anyone's, ie he didn't really have one.
  4. Standard memberknightmeister
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    20 Jun '08 22:36
    Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
    It's only been 20 minutes.

    I think Hitler's free will was about as circumscribed as anyone's, ie he didn't really have one.
    It 's been 5 days actually , have a look.
  5. Standard memberBosse de Nage
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    20 Jun '08 22:41
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    It 's been 5 days actually , have a look.
    Oops. My, uh, bad.

    Lately I've been swayed by views -- Spinoza's, Nietszche's -- that we don't really have free will -- and that that's not that big a deal. The Muslim concept of submission springs to mind. Anyway ... If you adopt a purely materialist viewpoint, Hitler's actions were pretty much predetermined.
  6. Standard memberknightmeister
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    21 Jun '08 11:33
    Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
    Oops. My, uh, bad.

    Lately I've been swayed by views -- Spinoza's, Nietszche's -- that we don't really have free will -- and that that's not that big a deal. The Muslim concept of submission springs to mind. Anyway ... If you adopt a purely materialist viewpoint, Hitler's actions were pretty much predetermined.
    But if his actions were free how would we be able to tell merely by our knowledge of history?
  7. weedhopper
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    21 Jun '08 16:161 edit
    Maybe I don't understand the whole concept here, but I'm in the position that I agree with you, but I do see the argument against free will. I know that God knows everything--past present & future, down to the slightest minutiae. And no, I (nor Hitler, nor anyone else, can "fool" God by acting other than how He KNOWS we will act. So, when people say that this idea takes away our free will, I can see their point. I agree with you (that it doesn't), but only because we puny humans can't wrap our brains around the idea. God can, and that's enough for me. As my pastor often says, in heaven, we will look back and slap our foreheads and say "Wow! How simple! Why didn't I see that?
  8. Joined
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    22 Jun '08 14:08
    Speaking from my own point of view (as an atheist), there is not such thing as ‘free will‘. That is because:

    1, if the future is predetermined then it would be hypothetically possible (and only hypothetically possible) to predict everybody’s thoughts and decisions if only we could know the precise position and state of every particle in the universe including the electrical charges that carry the messages around our brains for just one moment in time and then feed all that info into an infinitely powerful computer to predict all that will happen in the future by computer simulation. That will make a nonsense of the notion of ‘free-will’ because how would it be ‘free’ if I could tell you exactly and reliably what your next decision will be?

    2, if the future is not predetermined but, as according to some (not all) interpretations of quantum mechanics, there is some true randomness, then, given the fact that ‘randomness’ means you don’t have any control over it, it wouldn’t be you that determines the outcome of any random events in your brain or in anything else thus this will also make a nonsense of the notion of ‘free-will’ because how would it be ‘free’ if you did not determine your own decisions because they are controlled by random events?

    Either way, there is no ‘free-will’.

    It doesn’t make any difference to the argument if the future is in some sense partly determined and partly random -that would only mean that both arguments 1 and 2 partly apply.
  9. Standard memberknightmeister
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    26 Jun '08 21:24
    Originally posted by Andrew Hamilton
    Speaking from my own point of view (as an atheist), there is not such thing as ‘free will‘. That is because:

    1, if the future is predetermined then it would be hypothetically possible (and only hypothetically possible) to predict everybody’s thoughts and decisions if only we could know the precise position and state of every particle in the unive ...[text shortened]... tly determined and partly random -that would only mean that both arguments 1 and 2 partly apply.
    I think this is a good argument. If the universe is all that there is then every choice is either random or determined by some other cause. Either way that is not true free will in the Christian sense.

    If however there is an entity or level of existence that is Uncaused it or he would be free of determinism because it would require no cause for it's choices. The Christian idea is that God is an independent non-reliant agent who requires nothing but himself to choose or act. The idea is that he has given us some of this quality for free will.

    So if there is no God you are right , if there is then you could be wrong. Either way you position requires a pre assumption that God cannot exist , which is Ok , but still rather circular.
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