03 Feb 08
1 edit
Originally posted by scottishinnzEvolution is a fact and then there are theories to explain this fact. Species change, emerge and die out; that is not an "explanation or theory" but an observed and irrefutable fact.
Wrong again. I agree completely with Ammanion's statement. Evolution is not a fact, it is a theory, an explanation. An explanation which has substantively passed every test which has ever been thrown at it over 150 years.
Still, I thought this should make a resurgence, I feel Kelly needs reminded of the fact that this thread, where creationists men".
All the crap, Kelly, that you're spouting now was roundly rejected and right here.
03 Feb 08
Originally posted by scottishinnzI actually never made a saltation argument that was just something
Sorry Rob, I thought the Ghost of Christmas Past might put paid to Kelly's saltation arguments (again). Apparently there's no keeping a good automaton down, however.
you threw into the mix. I never heard of the term before so when
someone said I was making it, I just thought okay I was. Now that
I know what it is, no, that isn't something I'm saying or have said, in
this thread or any other!
Kelly
03 Feb 08
Originally posted by scottishinnz"...many evolutionist here..."
No, I was disagreeing with the clause you made. The one where you said "evolutionists wouldn't agree". (as is patently obvious from my text)
Again, you go out of your way to stop thinking.
Still waiting for the Zhang refutation, by the way.
I believe you are doing it again, I didn't say evolutionist wouldn't
agree but many here. I'm sure you will find something else to go off
on here shortly, it is what you do it seems.
Kelly
03 Feb 08
Originally posted by no1marauderWell, I suppose if you mean fact as "something real" then I'd agree. However, ... well, even then, all that really happens is mutation, mating and death - no evolution. Evolution is an emergent property of the system, it wouldn't even amount to a process, I guess....
Evolution is a fact and then there are theories to explain this fact. Species change, emerge and die out; that is not an "explanation or theory" but an observed and irrefutable fact.
However, I'd appreciate your thoughts...
06 Feb 08
Originally posted by scottishinnz"In fact, evolution can be precisely defined as any change in the frequency of alleles within a gene pool from one generation to the next."
Well, I suppose if you mean fact as "something real" then I'd agree. However, ... well, even then, all that really happens is mutation, mating and death - no evolution. Evolution is an emergent property of the system, it wouldn't even amount to a process, I guess....
However, I'd appreciate your thoughts...
- Helena Curtis and N. Sue Barnes, Biology, 5th ed. 1989 Worth Publishers, p.974
That this occurs is a fact. I don't know what definition you and others are using.
07 Feb 08
Originally posted by no1marauderThat is one of the issues with evolution, it can be defined by a number
"In fact, evolution can be precisely defined as any change in the frequency of alleles within a gene pool from one generation to the next."
- Helena Curtis and N. Sue Barnes, Biology, 5th ed. 1989 Worth Publishers, p.974
That this occurs is a fact. I don't know what definition you and others are using.
of ways. I agree small changes, you can claim it is evolving I guess,
but that theory normally has more to it than just that. For example
it also implies an unending string of life where all things came from
a single starting point, and so on. Depending on how you define it
it can be a theory, a fact, or a whatever.
I wonder if this thread will hit 4000 posts or not?
Kelly
07 Feb 08
Originally posted by KellyJayYou need to start distinguishing between The Theory of Evolution and the process known as evolution. I think no1marauder defined the process very well and it is an undeniable fact that it happens.
That is one of the issues with evolution, it can be defined by a number
of ways. I agree small changes, you can claim it is evolving I guess,
but that theory normally has more to it than just that. For example
it also implies an unending string of life where all things came from
a single starting point, and so on. Depending on how you define it
it can ...[text shortened]... e a theory, a fact, or a whatever.
I wonder if this thread will hit 4000 posts or not?
Kelly
The Theory of Evolution is much more than that as a very very shortened summary of it, I would say it theorizes that:
1. the process of evolution results in dramatic changes to life forms over time as a result of their environment and other factors
2. the process of evolution has resulted in single celled life forms some millions or billions of year ago evolving into the variety of life we see on the planet today.
You often mention "small changes" but I do not think you have ever defined that rigorously. Are you able to give a more accurate description of say the smallest change that you think would be impossible? Some people say speciation but that has been disproved many times. Others go further and mention 'kinds' but then refuse to say what a 'kind' is.
The confusion between 'evolution' and 'The Theory of Evolution' is akin to confusing 'gravity' a known an obvious fact with say 'Newtons Theory of Gravity' which may or may not be flawed.
07 Feb 08
Originally posted by KellyJayIt will if you keep crapping on ...
That is one of the issues with evolution, it can be defined by a number
of ways. I agree small changes, you can claim it is evolving I guess,
but that theory normally has more to it than just that. For example
it also implies an unending string of life where all things came from
a single starting point, and so on. Depending on how you define it
it can ...[text shortened]... e a theory, a fact, or a whatever.
I wonder if this thread will hit 4000 posts or not?
Kelly
07 Feb 08
1 edit
Originally posted by twhiteheadThe smallest change would be difficult; however, I will say I don't
You need to start distinguishing between The Theory of Evolution and the process known as evolution. I think no1marauder defined the process very well and it is an undeniable fact that it happens.
The Theory of Evolution is much more than that as a very very shortened summary of it, I would say it theorizes that:
1. the process of evolution results in d obvious fact with say 'Newtons Theory of Gravity' which may or may not be flawed.
think you can evolve an eye over time with small changes, evolve a
central nervous system over time, evolve a liver over time with small
changes; I believe it is much easier to modify a life that is established
to get various and sundry limited versions of it than it is to go from
one life form to a completely different one as in evolve from a small
fish like creature into a blade of grass or a cow, or take a single sex
creature and have it evolve into one with a male and female.
Kelly
08 Feb 08
Originally posted by KellyJayFor a start there are many simple eyes out there. You can start with platyhelminth worms (which have mere eye spots, little more than light sensitive cells) and going through the orders see a gradual increase in complexity to the most advanced eyes.
The smallest change would be difficult; however, I will say I don't
think you can evolve an eye over time with small changes, evolve a
central nervous system over time, evolve a liver over time with small
changes; I believe it is much easier to modify a life that is established
to get various and sundry limited versions of it than it is to go from
one ...[text shortened]... cow, or take a single sex
creature and have it evolve into one with a male and female.
Kelly
What are "limited versions"? Please define that.
Oh, and fish would never evolve into grass - they're in different Kingdoms!!
08 Feb 08
Originally posted by no1marauderYeah, I'll accept that definition.
"In fact, evolution can be precisely defined as any change in the frequency of alleles within a gene pool from one generation to the next."
- Helena Curtis and N. Sue Barnes, Biology, 5th ed. 1989 Worth Publishers, p.974
That this occurs is a fact. I don't know what definition you and others are using.