1. Standard membersonship
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    In God's infinite wisdom He has included examples of when the sentiment of pity can be a sin and cause of man's downfall.

    I think the main example I propose will be how king Saul lost his divinely ordained authority.

    "And Samuel said to Saul, Jehovah sent me to anoint you king over His people Israel. Now therefore listen to the voice of the words of Jehovah.

    Thus says Jehovah of hosts, I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they set themselves against them in the way as they came up out of Egypt.

    Go now and strike the Amalekites; and utterly destroy all that they have, and do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, infant and suckling, oxen and sheep, camel and donkey." (1 Samuel 15:1-3)


    What happened?
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    03 Jun '15 14:341 edit
    Originally posted by sonship
    In God's infinite wisdom He has included examples of when the sentiment of pity can be a sin and cause of man's downfall.

    I think the main example I propose will be how king Saul lost his divinely ordained authority.

    [b] "And Samuel said to Saul, Jehovah sent me to anoint you king over His people Israel. Now therefore listen to the voice of ...[text shortened]... uckling, oxen and sheep, camel and donkey." (1 Samuel 15:1-3)


    What happened?[/b]
    You left out the fact that Saul offered a sacrifice before the priest Samuel, who was late, got there.

    Saul simply begins to do things on his own, ignoring what God was telling him to do.

    Why did God choose Saul to begin with? Why did he choose David? If you look closely at scripture, you will see that God chooses the lowest of the low. Moses stuttered so badly that he needed his brother Aaron to speak for him. Moses was referred to as the Meekest of men. David was nothing but a child shepherd boy, and Saul was from the lowly tribe of Benjamin, from which he came from the lowliest of clans within that tribe.

    God seems to choose men who have next to no ego. Men who are better apt to listen and obey than do things as they desire. However, as men obtain power, as the likes of Moses, David, and Saul did, they begin to do things as they desire verses things God wants of them. As power increases the ego springs to life.

    And we see the consequences. Saul begin to rebel as you have noted, David sought a married woman and killed her husband, and Moses sinned against God in the wilderness, which is why he was not allowed to enter the promised land.

    And so it goes, power corrupts, which is why it grieved God when the people clamored for a king. He knew exactly the consequences for such centralized power.
  3. Standard membersonship
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    03 Jun '15 14:36
    A little more of the backround:

    "And Saul summoned the people and mustered them in Teliam, two hundred thousand footmen and ten thousand men of Judah. (v.4)

    And Saul came to the city of the Amalekites and set an ambush in the river valley. (v.5)

    And Saul said to the Kenites, Go. depart; go down from among the Amalekites; otherwise, I will destroy you with them; for you showed kindness to all the children of Israel when they came up out of Egypt. And the Kenites departed from among the Amalekites. (v.6)


    What happened next ??
  4. Standard membersonship
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    03 Jun '15 14:491 edit
    Originally posted by whodey
    You left out the fact that Saul offered a sacrifice before the priest Samuel, who was late, got there.


    I didn't leave it out of consideration. I just haven't gotten to that yet.
    I always catch it for writing too much you see?


    Saul simply begins to do things on his own, ignoring what God was telling him to do.


    We will get to that. He spared the best of the sheep with the people to offer it to God in worship.

    We spare what God has condemned and offer it to God.
    We do not realize the curse that is upon some matters in us.
    And out of self pity we spare "the best" or what we think is "the best" part of the fallen Adamic sin nature and offer it to God.

    This can cost us dearly in the spiritual realm.


    Why did God choose Saul to begin with? Why did he choose David? If you look closely at scripture, you will see that God chooses the lowest of the low. Moses stuttered so badly that he needed his brother Aaron to speak for him. Moses was referred to as the Meekest of men. David was nothing but a child shepherd boy, and Saul was from the lowly tribe of Benjamin, from which he came from the lowliest of clans within that tribe.


    No comment on this just yet. You can elaborate.


    God seems to choose men who have next to no ego. Men who are better apt to listen and obey than do things as they desire.


    The Bible leads up to the Perfect Man - the Son of God.
    Every precursor, every preview, every type, every foreshadow of all the heroes of the Old Testament are imperfect. No one was completely without self love or ego problems.

    Some readers seem not to get this.
    Abel, Enoch, Enosh, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, David, etc. etc. etc. all were like a ladder leading up to Jesus Christ - the perfect Son of God to be the Lord and Savior of all humanity.


    However, as men obtain power, as the likes of Moses, David, and Saul did, they begin to do things as they desire verses things God wants of them. As power increases the ego springs to life.


    That is one problem.

    I will highlight in this thread how the sparring of what God has dedicated to go to the cross becomes our downfall. I am glad for the illustration of this story.

    Everyone of us has "good things" which we spare from repenting of. We do not realize that it is ALL condemned because it is not Christ Himself. We offer to serve God what He has dedicated to destruction.

    I stop writing here to continue latter.
  5. SubscriberGhost of a Duke
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    03 Jun '15 15:13
    "Go now and strike the Amalekites; and utterly destroy all that they have, and do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, infant and suckling, oxen and sheep, camel and donkey." (1 Samuel 15:1-3)
    I think it's abundantly obvious that it is not pity that is the sinful downfall of man in this context, but the actioning of such a cruel and 'ungodly' instruction.

    Be honest, if you came across this verse in any other location but the bible, would you not deem its origin as profoundly evil?
  6. Standard membersonship
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    03 Jun '15 16:081 edit
    Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
    I think it's abundantly obvious that it is not pity that is the sinful downfall of man in this context, but the actioning of such a cruel and 'ungodly' instruction.


    I think it is shortsightedness to say this.

    Every battle in which God commanded victory did not call for such totality. And the Hebrew kings even had a reputation for being merciful kings.

    IE.
    "And his servants said to him, Look now, we have heard that the kings of the house of Israel are merciful kings. We beg you, let us put sackcloth on our loins and ropes upon our heads, and go out to the king of Israel. Perhaps he will preserve your life." (1 Kings 20:31)


    Since it is abundantly clear that God is merciful in many places in the OT and that His nation also held reputation for being merciful to their enemies, some exceptions must be meaningful.

    Since the Bible includes a FULL an "holistic" picture of God some of us would expect varied incidents showing all sides of His character would be in order.

    And this must include some incidents where His knowledge of a danger to creation far exceeds what we grasp. And at times we might not understand the thoroughness of His dealing with that problem.

    Moses had said that Amalek was a hand against the throne [of God]:

    "And Jehovah said to Moses, Write this as a memorial in a book and recite it to Joshua, that I will utterly blot out the memory of Amalek from under heaven. (Exodus 17:14)

    "For he [Moses] said, For there is a hand against the throne of Jah! Jehovah will have war with Amalek from generation to generation." (v.16)


    Not all of the enemies of Israel were spoken of so severely. The OT picture of Amalek is of an incurable, unredeemable rebelliion against the very authority of God. " For there is a hand against the throne ".

    There are sins against God's holiness. They are more easily forgiven. Then there are more serious sins against the very divine authority of God. That is a most basic revolt against the administration of God - a hand to dethrone God, a hand against the throne of God.

    Such is Satan's perpetual warfare against God. He utterly and for eternity is in rejection of God's eternal authority. It is well that this is pictured for us in the case of the Amalekites.
  7. Standard membersonship
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    03 Jun '15 16:082 edits

    Be honest,


    I promise to be honest about how I feel.


    Be honest. if you came across this verse in any other location but the bible, would you not deem its origin as profoundly evil?


    I would have trouble with it. I have some trouble with it in the location that I find it, the Bible. But I have learned not to trust myself in certain feelings.

    I would have trouble with God's instructions about the Amalekites as an new believer. Give me a few years of Christian experience though. Let me have some experiences of living as a Christian trying to follow the Holy Spirit, trying to live by the Word of God.

    What happened is that I found OUT - "Hmmm. Sometimes self pity caused me to cherish some secret sin. Sometimes self pity caused me not to obey the Lord Jesus in an absolute way. And the tragedy this can cause is extensive.

    I have found that the subtlety of Satan is far beyond my ability to discern. But it is not beyond the keen divine eye of the Son of God - Jesus. And when Christ shines on something in my heart and says -

    "This here. It is time for you to confess this as a sin and turn that area of your heart over to Me."

    But I respond with great pity. "But no Lord. This is good in me. This is the best of the sheep, like Saul spared in his fight against the Amalekites. This is sparing king Agag. This is something good not bad."
  8. Standard membersonship
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    03 Jun '15 16:11
    The wise God will let me have my way. The day will come when I realize that what I had a sparing self pitying attitude about causes great heartache and trouble.

    The picture of God's thorough judging of the Amalekites helps the Christian to understand this. King Saul was eventually slain by an Amalekite.

    He who spares the Amalekites will one day be slain by an Amalekite. The extensive deeply penetrating foresight and wisdom of God is portrayed in this exceptional story of His command to Saul.

    Eventually God shines on something in the heart of man which is a hand against the throne of God - a fundamental and incurable challenge to His divine eternal authority. And such deep seated rebellion, if not checked, will destroy you.
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    Originally posted by sonship
    No comment on this just yet. You can elaborate.
    1 Samuel 9:21 Saul answered, "But I'm from the tribe of Benjamin. It's the smallest tribe in Israel. And my family group is the least important in the whole tribe of Benjamin. So why are you saying I will be king?

    1 Samuel 16:6 When they arrived, Samuel saw Eliab. He thought, "This has to be the one the Lord wants me to anoint for him."
    7 But the Lord said to Samuel, "Do not consider how handsome or tall he is. I have not chosen him. I do not look at the things people look at.........but I look at the heart.
    10 Jesse had seven of his sons walk in front of Samuel. but Samuel said to them, "The Lord has not chosen any of them" So he asked, Jesse, "Are these the only sons you have?" "No", Jesse answered, "My youngest son is taking care of the sheep."( i.e David)

    Exodus 3:11 But Moses spoke to God, "Who am I that I should go to Pharaoh? Who am I that I should bring the Israelites out of Egypt?"

    Exodus 4:10 Moses spoke to the Lord, "Lord, I've never been a good speaker. And I have not gotten any better since you spoke to me. I don't speak very well at all" The Lord said to him "Who makes a man able to talk? Who makes him unabl to hear or speak? Who makes him able to see...........But Moses said, "Lord, please send someone else to do it." Then the Lord's anger burned against Moses. He said, "What about yoru brother, Aaron the Levite? I know he can speak well. He is already on his way to meet you. He will be glad to speak for you"

    Even Jesus is a nobody in the world's sight

    Isaiah 53:2 He did not have any beauty or majesty that made us notice him. There was not anything special about the way he looked that drew us to him. Men looked down on him. They did not accept him. He knew all about sorrow and suffering. He was like someone people turn their faces away from. We looked down on him, we did not have any respect for him."

    Even in choosing the people of Israel we see the same pattern

    Deuteronomy 7:7 "The Lord chose you because he loved you very much. He did not choose you because you had more people than other nations. In fact, you had the smallest number of all."

    The reason God chooses the weakest of the weak to work through I think is twofold. He is better able to work through them because they have a more accurate picture of themselves, which is weak, naked, and completely dependent upon God. However, when they obtain worldly power and wealth, the delusion falls upon them that they no longer need God.

    Secondly, working through the weakest of the weak and the ones the world despises, it shows the power and might of God. Not only did God bring Israel out of Egypt devoid of an army, he used a murderer who stuttered like there was no tomorrow and who was a fugitive and outcast from Egypt.
  10. Standard membersonship
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    03 Jun '15 21:482 edits
    Originally posted by whodey
    The reason God chooses the weakest of the weak to work through I think is twofold. He is better able to work through them because they have a more accurate picture of themselves, which is weak, naked, and completely dependent upon God. However, when they obtain worldly power and wealth, the delusion falls upon them that they no longer need God.

    Secondly, working through the weakest of the weak and the ones the world despises, it shows the power and might of God. Not only did God bring Israel out of Egypt devoid of an army, he used a murderer who stuttered like there was no tomorrow and who was a fugitive and outcast from Egypt.


    The calling of Moses is the most thorough record of God's calling of someone. It was very significant how God did it with three signs.

    1.) God turned the staff into a serpent and then back into a staff.

    When Moses obeyed and threw the rod down it became a serpent from which he fled in fear. Then God told Moses to take up the serpent by the tail. It became a rod again in his hand.

    This signifies that all that a man leans on in terms of worldly education and training is Satan in disguise. It is only exposed as to its true nature by God opening a man's eyes.

    The rod for leaning and traveling was exposed by God as a serpent to be feared, to be fled from. But after God exposed the rod as a serpent he commanded Moses to take it up by the tail.

    The man chosen by God will come often with some worldly training and worldly education. In Moses's case it was mostly what he learned in Egypt. To take the serpent by the tail is to use that education with a new realization. That is that the real nature of the whole worldly empire is Satanic and opposed to God to the core.

    Moses did not totally forsake his backround. But he now knew of its true nature - serpentine, Satanic, and poisoness. Picking up the the transformed rod by the tail is to have one's eyes opened so that his talents gathered from "Egypt" are handled in a new way, with God as the Lord and to God for His glory.

    I will touch on the other miracle in another post. That is God having Moses put his hand in his bosom and causing his hand to come out with leprosy.
  11. Standard membersonship
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    03 Jun '15 21:551 edit
    Originally posted by whodey
    1 Samuel 9:21 Saul answered, "But I'm from the tribe of Benjamin. It's the smallest tribe in Israel. And my family group is the least important in the whole tribe of Benjamin. So why are you saying I will be king?

    1 Samuel 16:6 When they arrived, Samuel saw Eliab. He thought, "This has to be the one the Lord wants me to anoint for him."
    7 But the L ...[text shortened]... murderer who stuttered like there was no tomorrow and who was a fugitive and outcast from Egypt.
    2.) The other sign that God had Moses do in His calling of Moses, was to place his hand in his bosom and pull it out again.

    When Moses did this his hand came away from his heart diseased with filthy leprosy. This was a sign to show Moses that the heart of man, even the man called by God, left to itself is incurably filled with the disease of sin.

    Jeremiah 17:9 -

    Holman Christian Standard Bible
    The heart is more deceitful than anything else, and incurable--who can understand it?

    International Standard Version
    "The heart is more deceitful than anything. It is incurable— who can know it?


    Because of the fall of man the heart of man is incurably wicked. The hand coming out of the bosom diseased with leprosy was the sign of what the true condition of man's heart is.

    His training and education are a hidden serpent.
    His heart is incurably sinful.

    This is the revelation of man that God manifested in the calling of His servant Moses. Yet God mightily used Moses. Moses is a type of Christ. Moses wrote five of the books of the Old Testament. How much God used this man.

    But before using him God had these signs witnessed by Moses.
    I think this should concur with much of what you wrote.
  12. SubscriberBigDoggProblem
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    Why did the oxen, sheep, camel and donkey have to be killed?
  13. SubscriberFMF
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    Originally posted by BigDoggProblem
    Why did the oxen, sheep, camel and donkey have to be killed?
    Apparently, according to sonship, because the "justice" is "perfect".
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    04 Jun '15 03:15
    Originally posted by BigDoggProblem
    Why did the oxen, sheep, camel and donkey have to be killed?
    I don't know.
    Maybe because of bestiality.

    But I don't know.
  15. Standard membersonship
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    04 Jun '15 03:331 edit
    So we examine Saul's disobedience.

    Then Saul struck the Amalekites from Havilah as you go down to Shur, which is opposite Egypt. And he captured Agag the king of the Amalekites alive and utterly destroyed all the people with the edge of the sword.

    But Saul and the people spared Agag and the best of the sheep and of the oxen and of the fatlings, and the lambs and all that was good, and would not utterly destroy them; but everything that was despised and worthless, this they utterly destroyed.

    And the word of Jehovah came to Samuel, saying, I repent that I made Saul king, for he has turned back from following Me and has not fulfilled My words. And Samuel was angry, and he cried to Jehovah all night long. (1 Sam. 15:7-11)


    Saul saved what he and the people deemed was "the best".
    And they destroyed everything that was "despised and worthless".

    We do not realize that God has condemned the entire old man fallen from Adam. But we think only the grossly wicked has to go. What is the best, the cultured, the refined, the upstanding in the sight of man, we save.

    All ethical philosphies easily recognize the low, the obviously wicked like lustfulness, greed and stealing. But the refined and "best" of the old nature we think should be saved. This we come and offer to God.

    The lesson of Saul and the Amalekites is that the entire fallen world is under a curse. Our human estimation of what should be saved is not God's estimation. And our tendency to cling to what we deem as the good is still in rebellion to God.

    The story is a drastic illustration of man's estimation falling far below the estimation of God.
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