who are the 144,000?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
God the Son of God, Lol, whatever

i do not blame Galveston for giving up, in fact, i think it is rather admirable myself, for no doubt he realised the utter futility of discussing something that is not based on reason.

(2 Timothy 2:14) . . .Keep reminding them of these things, charging them before God as witness, not to fight about words, a thi ...[text shortened]... disposed; as perhaps God may give them repentance leading to an accurate knowledge of truth....

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(2 Timothy 2:23-26) Further, turn down foolish and ignorant questionings,
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Identify exactly what is "foolish and ignorant" about Hebrews 1:8 where the Son is addressed as "O God".

What is foolish and ignorant about me believing and teaching that the Son is God, according to Hebrews 1:8 ?

Originally posted by jaywill
And this passages warns me about you and your Kingdom Hall heretics:

[b]"If anyone teaches diffeent things and does not consent to healthy words, those of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the teaching which is according to godliness,

He is blinded with pride, understanding nothing, but is deseased with questionings and contentions of words, out of which co ...[text shortened]... perpetual wranglings of men corrupt in mind and depraved of the truth ..." (1 Tim. 6:3-5)[/b]

just a point, i have taught nothing that is not in scripture, you are the one teaching something that is not even mentioned by Christ or Paul and that you have publicly acknowledged is not even mentioned in scripture, so lets get that quite clear, secondly i reject your statement that i am a heretic because i do not accept the trinity, the teaching of hell fire, the immortality of the human soul, I have accepted Christ as a model, i diligently study scripture, i look after my family, i engage in a public ministry, I have reached out to persons of different faiths, I have learned a foreign language and went to Pakistan to preach to those of an Islamic background, at my own expense and some danger to my person. In my own country i am looking after my parents, as well as my own family, i have never seen anyone in need and not done something when it was in my hand to do so, for which one of these fine works are you condemning me as heretic Jaywill?

did i say that you should not believe the trinity? did i not say, be my guest? if you want to believe it, then go ahead? do you want to burn me as your friend Brother Calvin murdered Michael Servetus because he did not also accept the trinity?

i am telling you in sincerity Jaywill, you need to live and let live, you cannot condemn someone because they do not hold the same belief as you, its about as far away from the Christ as i can imagine. you study the scriptures, where is the compassion, the empathy, the kindness, love of God and of other humans? does not mercy triumph over judgement? if so, where is it? what does it state with regard to those of judge mercilessly will they not receive their judgement without mercy?

condemn me if you like Jaywill, it matters not, for i know my God Jehovah, is full of loving kindness, and i wish to reflect that demeanour, regardless of the slander.

(Nehemiah 9:17) . . .But you are a God of acts of forgiveness, gracious and merciful, slow to anger and abundant in loving-kindness, and you did not leave them.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
just a point, i have taught nothing that is not in scripture, you are the one teaching something that is not even mentioned by Christ or Paul and that you have publicly acknowledged is not even mentioned in scripture, so lets get that quite clear, secondly i reject your statement that i am a heretic because i do not accept the trinity, the teaching o ...[text shortened]... racious and merciful, slow to anger and abundant in loving-kindness, and you did not leave them.

Robbie, as you know I like a spirited debate, and will give as good as I get. The truth of this debate is that we are simply playing scriptural ping pong.
Having said that, You of course may believe as you wish, as may I. Unlike many of the Christians here, I have a very broad and liberal view of salvation and God's kingdom and do not hold rigidly to dogma unless the conviction of my heart tells me to (as in the case of the trinity)

There are some things I do admire about the JW's. There stance on war and military service, and their devotion to learning the word of God, even if I disagree with the message taught.
Conversly there are things that I am deeply troubled by with your denomination, but they are your issues, and you as a denomination will have to answer to God for them, not me.

Originally posted by duecer
Robbie, as you know I like a spirited debate, and will give as good as I get. The truth of this debate is that we are simply playing scriptural ping pong.
Having said that, You of course may believe as you wish, as may I. Unlike many of the Christians here, I have a very broad and liberal view of salvation and God's kingdom and do not hold rigidly to dogma u t they are your issues, and you as a denomination will have to answer to God for them, not me.

yes Deucer, you are correct, i have debated this issue at great length with Jaywill in the past, there is a thread almost three or four hundred pages long somewhere, i am rather reticent to do so again.

My point to Jaywill, l for i do not doubt that he is a spiritual man, and a student of Gods word, and it is for each and everyone of us, we are Christians, we study the life and times of the Christ, if that is the case, then where is the compassion that Christ displayed, where is the freedom from judgement? yes he had strong things to say, but i cannot think of one instance where he made someone feel guilty because they believed something else. look at the Samaritan women at the well, the first person that Christ revealed to that he was the Messiah. Did he condemn her? no, he simply stated that salvation arose with the Jews, that the father was looking for ones to worship him in spirit and in truth. the women was so surprised by Christ demeanour that she was taken aback, 'why do you speak to me you being a Jew?, she asked. Christ was completely impartial, her gender did not matter, her race did not matter, her marital life and her infidelity did not matter, Christ was all about reaching out to humanity not condemning it!

but it is late here, ive said too much as usual and regret it, the best we can possibly hope for i think is a mutual understanding, and if that can be reached, it is enough for me Deucer me ol son, so i say goodnight to sunny America, i got guests coming tomorrow, West Indians, and we gonna talk about Usian Bolt, maybe play some reggae, drink a little rum at night, and feel good - wish you well my friend

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
just a point, i have taught nothing that is not in scripture, you are the one teaching something that is not even mentioned by Christ or Paul and that you have publicly acknowledged is not even mentioned in scripture, so lets get that quite clear, secondly i reject your statement that i am a heretic because i do not accept the trinity, the teaching o ...[text shortened]... racious and merciful, slow to anger and abundant in loving-kindness, and you did not leave them.

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am telling you in sincerity Jaywill, you need to live and let live, you cannot condemn someone because they do not hold the same belief as you, its about as far away from the Christ as i can imagine. you study the scriptures, where is the compassion, the empathy, the kindness, love of God and of other humans? does not mercy triumph over judgement? if so, where is it? what does it state with regard to those of judge mercilessly will they not receive their judgement without mercy?
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You have a way of suddenly switching from attack mode to victim mode. You are now putting your "poor persecuted victim" hat on.

Anyone who looks back through your posts can see that you are aggressive to make denigrading comments to other posters who speak of the Trinity, for example.

Please don't try so hard to play the victim, talking about "live and let live." I don't consider you the victim here. I consider you the aggressor.

Originally posted by jaywill
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am telling you in sincerity Jaywill, you need to live and let live, you cannot condemn someone because they do not hold the same belief as you, its about as far away from the Christ as i can imagine. you study the scriptures, where is the compassion, the empathy, the kindness, love of God and of other humans? doe ...[text shortened]... "live and let live." I don't consider you the victim here. I consider you the aggressor.

we've all been a little aggresive at one time or another, its part of what makes for a good debate

ah yes, but i am changing Jaywill, i have not stagnated but i am trying to the best of my ability to put on the new personality and to cultivate the fruits of Gods spirit

(Ephesians 4:22-24) . . .that you should put away the old personality which conforms to your former course of conduct and which is being corrupted according to his deceptive desires;  but that you should be made new in the force actuating your mind, and should put on the new personality which was created according to God’s will in true righteousness and loyalty.

(Galatians 5:22-23) . . .On the other hand, the fruitage of the spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith,  mildness, self-control. Against such things there is no law.

will you also condemn me for doing this? A person should reflect the qualities of the God that he worships, a vindictive personality reflects a vindictive God, a compassionate and a loving personality reflects a loving God.

I do not agree that i deliberately painted myself as a victim. you cannot condemn me for one of those actions that i listed, no not one, therefore you have resorted to the only other avenue open to you, slander and misrepresentation. i don't blame you for it, nor think any less of you for it, it happens everyday, but you really should have a deep think about how you view others, try to think of them as individuals, as sheep without a shepherd, not as aggressors determined to wreck your faith.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
ah yes, but i am changing Jaywill, i have not stagnated but i am trying to the best of my ability to put on the new personality and to cultivate the fruits of Gods spirit

(Ephesians 4:22-24) . . .that you should put away the old personality which conforms to your former course of conduct and which is being corrupted according to his deceptive desi as individuals, as sheep without a shepherd, not as aggressors determined to wreck your faith.

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Ephesians 4:22-24) . . .that you should put away the old personality which conforms to your former course of conduct and which is being corrupted according to his deceptive desires; but that you should be made new in the force actuating your mind, and should put on the new personality which was created according to God’s will in true righteousness and loyalty.
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I don't think that is a very good translation. The "new man" is not simply "new personality" and the "old man" is not just the "old personality".

Paul is speaking about the corporate new man which was created in Christ Jesus at the cross, putting Jews and Gentiles in one Body.

"New personality" / "old personality" is too individualistic. Paul's revelation is much higher than that here in Ephesians. It is the one new MAN as a corporate entity he is saying we should put on.

But I think the "translators" worked on this paraphrase in conjuncion with what they understand.

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(Galatians 5:22-23) . . .On the other hand, the fruitage of the spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith, mildness, self-control. Against such things there is no law.
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It is touching for you to appeal to such passages. I think it is better than writing "ha ha" at what others believe. Especially when you do not do a very good job of demonstrating any error in it, substituting well reasoned examination with "ha ha" is just ridicule.

Aside from that, it is interesting how you derive such traits as "love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith, mildness, self-control" from someTHING which you are taught is only a FORCE.

I never heard any one speak of the "love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith, mildness, self-control" as the fruits of a FORCE, like the force of gravity or the force of electricity.

You were taught that the Spirit of God is just a force, so your translation puts it in small letters. But I already pointed out to you, and your laughing attitude:

"Now the Lord is the Spirit" (2 Cor. 3:17)

There is no question in my mind that "the Lord" in that verse refers to "the Lord Jesus Christ". And He is not just a force is He?

That Spirit is the Holy Spirit. So the Lord Jesus Christ, a Person, is the Holy Spirit. This is touching on why the brothers came up with a phrase like the Triune God.


It was not because they sat around thinking what they could do to puzzle everyone for years to come about the New Testament. They defended the attacks against the Person of Christ from both sides. One side saying that He was not a man. The other saying that he was not God. One side attacking that His divinity was incomplete. The other side attacking that His humanity was incomplete.

They were compeled then to arrive at a phrase - "Trinity". The phrase may be problematic and it has. But when properly understood some of us will defend its existence. We do not apologize for the need for such a phrase.

If you want to "ha ha" my usage of "trinity" or "Triune God" I might challenge you to demonstrate that you cannot defend Arius's Christology makng Christ an arch-angel instead of God incarnate as He is in the Bible.


will you also condemn me for doing this? A person should reflect the qualities of the God that he worships, a vindictive personality reflects a vindictive God, a compassionate and a loving personality reflects a loving God.

I do not condemn you for wanting to express the fruits of the Spirit of God which is the Spirit of Christ.

I want to do so too. Of course for me the Spirit is not a force but the Lord Jesus in His pneumatic form - "the last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45)

By all means, seek the fruits of the Spirit. Seek the fruits which express the Lord Who is the Spirit.

"For we do not preach ourselves but Christ Jesus as Lord" (2 Cor. 4:5)

Did you see that ??? - "CHRIST JESUS AS LORD" in Second Corinthians.

Now we are also told "Now THE LORD IS THE SPIRIT" (2 Cor. 3:17)[/b]

Now if you have a problem with my speaking of the Triune God or of Christ being the Holy Spirit, instead of "ha ha ha" I invite you to point out my error.

I have arrived late to the frey, but this is my take. I have always interpreted the 144,000 to mean an actual reference to Israelites. From what I can gather, the "beast" will engulf all world governments except that of Israel as the nations gather against her for one last show down. As for Christians, those who do not take the mark and take part in "the beast" will have no place in the one world system and be done away with. Then all that will be left is the tiny hated nation of Israel for whom pretty much all the nations are ready to attack it as it is.

Originally posted by jaywill
[b]==========================
Ephesians 4:22-24) . . .that you should put away the old personality which conforms to your former course of conduct and which is being corrupted according to his deceptive desires; but that you should be made new in the force actuating your mind, and should put on the new personality which was created according to God’s ...[text shortened]... "ha ha ha" I invite you to point out my error.

Jay. I really appreciate your wisdom and your ability to write very impressive post. No one does that better.
But just an observation of your comments as well as others that try to convience that the trinity is in the bible. It's that there is usually a lot that is being said and some of it somewhat applys to what is being said but then a good portion seems to have nothing to do with that subject. Our friend Daniel, as much as he's trying quotes scriptures that sometimes hint a little as to what he's tring to explain but more times then not actually hurts his case.
For ones that don't believe the Trinity and see that it is not taught in the Bible in anyway shape or form, reads yours and other postings and read some really confused logic.
But at least your trying and not saying what less studied ones like yourself do and say it's just a mystery.

ok, this is your assertion, however, to me it is not wholly accurate, not according to the original language that is, for this phrase, the force actuating the mind, is non other than Gods Holy spirit, that is why these fruits are termed the fruit-age of the spirit.

here is a on-line Greek interlinear translation, which testifies to this fact. one that i just picked at random.

http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/eph4.pdf

it reads Ephesians 4:23

pneuma ho nous humeis
spirit of the mind, of you

New World translation renders it 'the force actuating the mind'.

Galations 5:23

ho de karpos ho pneuma
the yet fruit of the spirit

why the Holy Spirit in these instances should be mistaken for a God, i do not know, for it is quite clear from the book of Genesis (Gods spirit moved to and fro upon the surface of the waters) to the Christian Greek Scriptures (the force actuating upon the mind) that God has an active agent, which accomplishes much, which is clearly termed the Holy Spirit. i suspect that you allegiance to the trinity has clouded your spiritual vision in this regard. however if you do not accept it for some other reason, then let it be heard, that we too may evaluate it for ourselves, but as for these two references i have given, clearly one needs Gods Holy spirit if one is to accomplish and change ones personality. this is compounded by the fact that it is accurate knowledge of scripture which helps us also

(Colossians 3:9-10) . . .Strip off the old personality with its practices, and clothe yourselves with the new personality, which through accurate knowledge is being made new according to the image of the One who created it

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
the holy spirits name, the lord, give me peace Jaywill, the Lord, haha, what type of name is 'the Lord?' , is it a proper name?

now you will be pleased to answer how the holy spirit is God, this should be interesting to note your contortions, so if you please.

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the holy spirits name, the lord, give me peace Jaywill, the Lord, haha, what type of name is 'the Lord?' , is it a proper name?

now you will be pleased to answer how the holy spirit is God, this should be interesting to note your contortions, so if you please
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"God is Spirit ..." (John 4:24)

This passage should be enough to point out that the Spirit of God is God.

The passage should not be talking about the human spirit. So to capitalize Spirit is logical. Latter in John we are also told "It is the Spirit who gives life ..." (John 6:63). Since God is Spirit and God the Father gives life (John 5:21) we can conclude that the Spirit that gives life is God.

God is called "the Father" because He is the source of the divine eternal life and life's Giver:

"For just as the Father raises the dead and gives [them] life, ..." (5:21) .

The Father gives them divine life. But it is the Spirit who gives life ((6:63). So the Father is God and the Spirit also must be God.

Both the Father and the Son have life and give life - "For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whom He wills." (5:21).

The Father gives divine life. The Son gives divine life. And the Spirit gives divine life. So we conclude from this also that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are God.

The Spirit not only gives life but is called "the Spirit of life" (Rom. 8:2).

All Three are said to give the divine and eternal life to man. The Spirit is called "the Spirit of life" and Jesus said that He IS the life:

"I am the way and the truth and the life ..." (John 14:6)

It is all about dispensing God as divine life into man. So please stop your laughing, This is serious.

Father, the very name implies He is not only Creator but the source of divine life. The Son is the life. He said so many times. He is the resurrection and the life (John 11:25)[/b]. And He is the bread of life, and the way and truth and the life (John 14:6)

And the Spirit gives life (John 6:63) and is called "the Spirit of life" (Rom.8:2).

The brothers in the past were justified in noticing all this and coming up with a phrase trinity.

The Christians KNOW the God abides in them because of the Spirit of divine life:

"In this we know that we abide in Him and He in us, that He has given to us of His Spirit." (1 John 4:13)

"And in this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He gave to us." (3:24)

For "the Lord is the Spirit" (2 Cor. 3:17)

The Triune God is for the dispensing of divine and eternal life into man. The Holy Spirit is the final stage in which God reaches man's inner being. The Father is the source. The Son is the course. And the Holy Spirit is the final reaching, the flow of this life into man.

So we have a passage like this to show that Father, Son, and Spirit are in the operation of dispensing God as life into man:

"He [the Holy Spirit] will glorify Me, for He will receive of Mine and will declare it to you.
All that the Father has is Mine; for this reason I have said that He receives of Mine and will declare it to you." (John 16:14,15)

The Triune God is operating to convey what the Father has through the Son by the Spirit into the believers.

Originally posted by jaywill
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the holy spirits name, the lord, give me peace Jaywill, the Lord, haha, what type of name is 'the Lord?' , is it a proper name?

now you will be pleased to answer how the holy spirit is God, this should be interesting to note your contortions, so if you please
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...[text shortened]... t the Father has through the Son by the Spirit into the believers.[/b]

Robbie.....It seems useless huh? He is an extrememly inteligent person but has let himself be blinded. Maybe Jay some day like thousands that have had this belief and finally realizd it's not the truth, will come to see the correct truth in the Bible.

Originally posted by galveston75
Robbie.....It seems useless huh? He is an extrememly inteligent person but has let himself be blinded. Maybe Jay some day like thousands that have had this belief and finally realizd it's not the truth, will come to see the correct truth in the Bible.

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Robbie.....It seems useless huh? He is an extrememly inteligent person but has let himself be blinded. Maybe Jay some day like thousands that have had this belief and finally realizd it's not the truth, will come to see the correct truth in the Bible.
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I overheard that !

I am not super intelligent.

But I will tell you this. You and your colleagues at Watchtower have greatly underestimated how much these matters have been examined, researched, and explored by people more intelligent then both of us.

It would be nice if you stopped taking for granted that careful Bible students looked intensely into the nature of God in the Bible.

You could make a step in that direction by realizing that it was not 1200 years ago a few zany theologians had nothing else to do one day but concoct a funny teaching in order to get every one scatching thier heads.

The Bible is mysterious. Get use to it. And stop pretending that everything there is a slam dunk that Watchtower can quickly iron out for everybody in 10 minutes at your doorstep.

Originally posted by duecer
its not literal. if it is literal then virtually no JW has a heavenly hope, and all those who claim they do are liars.
the number 144,00 is symbolic. 12= 12 tribes, squared and times a thousand signifies completeness. God's complete church...everyone.

No, no, no.
It is the number which can fit on "Gods" spaceship.
Yes, "God" has spaceships.