who are the 144,000?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
all scripture is inspired of God end beneficial for setting things straight, so that the man of God may be fully competent, equipped for very good work - 2 Timothy 3:16,17

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all scripture is inspired of God end beneficial for setting things straight, so that the man of God may be fully competent, equipped for very good work - 2 Timothy 3:16,17
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Thank you. Thank you. I also believe that.

I did not mean that the book of Ecclesiastes is not inspired or not profitable. I mean the revelation of the Bible is progressive.

Solomon was very wise. He says in essence what you find to do in life do it heartily because when you die its is all over. Now no one can argue with that. There is no knowledge of fulfilling your ambition in death to which we all are going, unless Christ comes first.

So if you are about a skill or profession, do it well and do it with knowledge. When you croak you won't be doing that any more.

I am just saying we have to put Ecclesiastes in its proper perspective. I am not going to use Ecclesiastes to elevate it over the Gospel of Luke. In Luke we are told of the consciousness of the rich man and of the begger Lazarus. If Jesus had wanted to refer to Ecclesiastes that neither the rich man nor Lazarus was aware of anything after they died, He would have.

Jesus Christ did not appeal to "no knowledge" written by Solomon. The account in Luke 16:19-31 is probably not a "parable" because in NO parable that I can recall did Jesus refer to a person by NAME.

It reads to me like something which He saw, was aware that had happened. I do not need to know ALL the details. I do not need to be able to explain exactly WHEN it occurred. I am convinced that the teaching is about something which actually happened to someone with a specific name - Lazarus.

The whole teaching of Luke 16:19-31 is a warning to the rich. Christ could have said that in Hades there is no knowledge and no activity and everyone who has died is totally oblivious to everything because their souls are non-existent similar to what Solomon taught.

HE DID NOT DO THAT.

So I will not be using Ecclesiastes to trump what He did teach there in Luke. Rather I think we should let Luke 16:19-31 rise above the Ecclesiastes passage that there is no knowledge in the grave.

This to me is like saying "money is the answer to everything" in Ecclesiastes is a more final word than "you cannot serve God and mammon" in the Gospels.

Context - in the progressive revelation is important to me.

Originally posted by jaywill
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all scripture is inspired of God end beneficial for setting things straight, so that the man of God may be fully competent, equipped for very good work - 2 Timothy 3:16,17
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Thank you. Thank you. I also believe that.

I did not mean that the book of Ecclesiastes is not in ...[text shortened]... n"[/b] in the Gospels.

Context - in the progressive revelation is important to me.[/b]

i have asked Duecer these questions, perhaps you can also oblige, for i have never understood it. you say Jaywill that the Christ resides in your heart, is that not the case? is the Kingdom also in your heart as well? also are you saved? if so what are you saved from? can you provide the scriptural basis for these things for i have resolved that if at least i do not agree, i may understand where you are coming from, so to speak.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
i have asked Duecer these questions, perhaps you can also oblige, for i have never understood it. you say Jaywill that the Christ resides in your heart, is that not the case? is the Kingdom also in your heart as well? also are you saved? if so what are you saved from? can you provide the scriptural basis for these things for i have resolved that if at least i do not agree, i may understand where you are coming from, so to speak.

That is a number of questions. And because the discussion is rather a polemic matter I am cautious not to give you an less than thorough explanation.

In an atmosphere like this (of debate and counter points) a brief answer will likely lead to misunderstanding.

So let me deal with ONE of those questions. That is the matter of Christ being in the heart.

First, what is the heart ?

The heart is composed of four components of the human being.

1.) the conscience
2.) the will
3.) the mind
4.) the emotion

When the New Testament says "That Christ may make His home in your hearts through faith" (Eph. 3:17), Paul is speaking of the personality of the living and resurrected Jesus mingling with a man's conscience, mind, emotion, and will.

This making home in the heart of the believer is a gradual process. It is not an instantaneous matter. So when I say, Jesus has come into my heart, it is a matter of degree. I do not mean that He has filled up my whole personality yet. It does mean that He is in the process.

To be at home means to have authority over that place. For Christ to make His home in my heart must entail that Christ has more and more authority over my conscience, mind, emotion, and will. He comes not as a temporary visitor but as a resident. A resident decides HOW he wants to arrange his own dwelling.

Christ making His home in my heart is a life long moving in of Christ.

There is something though more instantaneous. It does not take a life time. That is for Christ to come into my spirit. That only takes a second. When I invite Christ to come into me initially, having confessed Him as my Lord and Savior, it only takes a second for Christ to come into me. And He remains in me for ETERNITY.

This post is long. So I will continue the post below.

Originally posted by jaywill
That is a number of questions. And because the discussion is rather a polemic matter I am cautious not to give you an less than thorough explanation.

In an atmosphere like this (of debate and counter points) a brief answer will likely lead to misunderstanding.

So let me deal with [b]ONE of those questions. That is the matter of Christ being in th ...[text shortened]... nd He remains in me for ETERNITY.

This post is long. So I will continue the post below.[/b]

ok i can understand this, please keep posts to a similar length if possible and use unambiguous language that i may fully comprehend what it is you are saying. please rest assured i will not offer up any comments but simply seek to see what this thing purports to be.

Above I wrote that when I say "Jesus is in my heart" I do not mean that the filling of my whole being with Jesus has taken place. Degree wise, He is in the process of filling my conscience, mind, emotion, and will.

Now the initial receiving of Jesus is more instant. It only takes a second, maybe less than a second.

For Christ to come into the human spirit is the beginning of Christ making His home in my heart. It is the beginning. When He comes into you He is there for eternity. For Him to transform you, sanctify you, conform you, build you up in Himself and in His body, fill your personality, this is a life long matter.

To receive Him into your human spirit is fast if you are prepared to let Christ in.

How can Christ come into our human spirit? He can do so because "the last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45)

Christ comes to men and women in a form in which He can enter into their human spirit. He is a life giving Spirit. The New Testament says that this Spirit is the Spirit of God. The New Testament says that this Spirit is the Spirit of Christ. In fact the New Testament says that this Spirit is Christ Himself.

The New Testament also says that this Spirit is the Spirit of Jesus.
The New Testament says that this is the Spirit of Christ.
The New Testament says that this Spirit is the Spirit of Jesus Christ.

The New Testament says that this Spirit is "Another Comforter"
The New Testament says that this Spirit is "the Spirit of Reality"

The New Testament also says that this Spirit is the Paraclete and the Advocate.

It is through this Spirit that Christ can be in the believers. And Paul's final written word in the New Testament is to Timothy -

"The Lord be with your spirit. Grace be with you." (2 Tim. 4:22)

This Holy Spirit being in the believer is Christ the Lord being WITH their regenerated spirit.

This Holy Spirit is the means by which the Apostle can say - " ... do you not realize about yourselves that Jesus Christ is in you, unless you are disapproved." ( 2 Cor. 13:5)


It is by means of this life giving Holy Spirit that Paul can say - " ... and it is no longer I who live, but it is Christ who lives in me .." ( Gal. 2:20)

It is by means of this Spirit that Paul can say "Christ in you the hope of glory" (Col. 1:27)

It is through this Spirit, this Holy Spirit, that Paul can write " ... we have this treasure in earthen vessels that the excellency of the power may be of God and not of us." ( 2 Cor. 4:7)

It is by means of this Spirit that Paul can say - " Christ will be magnified in my body, whether through life of through death." (Phil. 1:20)

It is through this marvelous all-inclusive Spirit that Paul can say = "For I know that this will turn out to salvation through petition and the bountiful supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ." (Phil. 1:19)


In this Spirit of Jesus Christ is a bountiful supply of all that we need. For this Spirit is Christ Jesus Himself in the form of a pneumatic, all inclusive, rich and bountiful life giving Spirit.

Originally posted by jaywill
Above I wrote that when I say "Jesus is in my heart" I do not mean that the filling of my whole being with Jesus has taken place. Degree wise, He is in the process of filling my conscience, mind, emotion, and will.

Now the initial receiving of Jesus is more instant. It only takes a second, maybe less than a second.

For Christ to come into the human s ...[text shortened]... orm of a pneumatic, all inclusive, rich and bountiful life giving Spirit.

so you actually believe that Christ literally mingles with your spirit and offers you direction and guidance in life, is that correct and the basis for this are these scriptures above? ok so far so good.

This post will be very short and VERY crucial.

Come back to this verse, Eph. 3:17.

"That Christ may make His home in your hearts through faith."

It is through FAITH that we receive Christ. It is our faith on one side, but more importantly HIS FAITHFULNESS. He is eager. He is willing. He has a good pleasure to do so. He is literally longing to do so.

There is no problem on the side of Christ, on the side of God.

WE .... LET Christ in simply by faith.

"Lord Jesus. You said YOU would come to the one who loves you and make an abode with them, You and Your Father.

Lord Jesus. BASED ON YOUR WORD !! Based upon YOUR promise. Based upon YOUR teaching. I receive You into my heart by faith. I confess I am a helpless sinner. I confess I am in need of your cleansing blood for the forgiveness of my sins.

And I stand upon YOUR promise that you WILL come and make an abode with me, I receive You Lord Jesus into my heart, into my spirit, into ME.

Thank you Lord Jesus."

CHRIST .... Will Make His Home In Your Heart Through FAITH. PERIOD, NO iF, Ands, or Buts.

This you can take to the bank.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
so you actually believe that Christ literally mingles with your spirit and offers you direction and guidance in life, is that correct and the basis for this are these scriptures above? ok so far so good.

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so you actually believe that Christ literally mingles with your spirit and offers you direction and guidance in life, is that correct and the basis for this are these scriptures above? ok so far so good.
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"He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit" (1 Cor. 6:17)

The word MINGLE here is a good word. There was the sinner's spirit and there was the Holy Spirit. They were separated. When the sinner is forgiven and justified by Christ through faith, she is JOINED TO THE LORD.

What has happened between her spirit and the Holy Spirit? The two co-mingle, unite, mingle, intertwine, interlock, mix together to become "ONE SPIRIT"

The two spirits joined to become "one spirit".

And she can say "Today Jesus came to live in Me."

Originally posted by jaywill
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so you actually believe that Christ literally mingles with your spirit and offers you direction and guidance in life, is that correct and the basis for this are these scriptures above? ok so far so good.
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"He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit" (1 Cor. 6: ...[text shortened]... ed to become [b]"one spirit".

And she can say "Today Jesus came to live in Me."[/b]

not to interfere, but I like this particular imagery

John 15
1I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

2Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

3Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

4Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

5I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

6If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

7If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

One more crucial matter.

When Christ comes to live in a person, He brings with Him His attainments and His obtainments.

One of those is His death on the cross.

We have many bad habits. Christ's DEATH .... can be appropriated by us to KILL OFF these negative things.

This is miraculous. This is supernatural. But Paul says - "I HAVE BEEN CRUCIFIED WITH CHRIST" (Gal. 2:20)

He learned the secret. Because Christ was in Him the death of Christ was available to him to kill off the "germs" of the fallen nature.

This is not self improvement. This is not "turning over a new leaf". This is not trying to do better. This is not a 12 step self improvement program.

This is DYING to self and rising again to live a life mingled with Jesus. This is "by the Spirit put to death the practices of the body."

Have I personally totally arrived at Paul's level of maturity ? No. I have a long long way to go. But I see the secret.

It is not to improve. It is to DIE. You cannot be improved. You can only be KILLED OFF and RAISED again.

The symbol of this way to live is BAPTISM. Baptism then signifies a whole new way of living. You intend .... you intend ... to apply the DEATH of Jesus to your old Satanic and fallen man, and to apply the resurrection of Jesus that your NEW MAN may gradually formulate in your being.

You are transformed by cantabolism / anabolism. By an "organic" process of death and resurrection, your personality is "Christified".

Originally posted by duecer
not to interfere, but I like this particular imagery

John 15
1I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

2Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

3Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

4Abide in me, ...[text shortened]... bide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

Very good.

Now notice please.

Nowhere in this chapter does Jesus tell us HOW to abide in Him as the true vine. So how does one do it?

In this chapter it is firstly by SEEING, that the believer is the branch and Jesus is the true vine. The Christians is not STRUGGLING to get in. He is in Him already.

It is by SEEING, by REALIZING, "I am a branch and Jesus Christ is the True Vine. I am in Him already."

This is the way to Abide in Christ. It is by standing by faith that I am in Him as a branch.

Let's bust it down to practicality. You're married. Your spouse comes home with a long face. There is a temptation to exchange argumentative words. You want to argue. You want to get the last word.

Instead you turn to the Lord Jesus in your heart. You pray "Lord Jesus YOU are the True Vine and I am abiding in You as a branch."

I tell you by standing on the truth of the word of God, grace empowers you. The temper is suddenly killed off by His cross. His Spirit swallows up the irritation. You abide in Christ. And He abides in you.

"Abide in Me and I in you."

We appropriate the riches of the New Testament by turning to the Lord Jesus within and standing on His word.

Through His precious and great promises we become partakers of the divine nature (2 Peter 1:4)

The branches can do nothing unless they abide in the Vine. The juices of the Vine will flow into the branches, swallow up the problems of the branches and supply life to them.