1. Standard memberamannion
    Andrew Mannion
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    14 Aug '06 05:37
    Originally posted by vistesd
    Hey! I thought we were arguing—what happened?

    Oh yeah: I misread your post on frames, responded thoughtlessly, and then you moved me where I really needed to go... 🙂
    Right.
    Now all we need to do is develop a cure for cancer, find world peace, and find out just whatis going on with Michael Jackson ...
  2. Standard memberAnonymousnumber1
    Just call me
    Gark
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    14 Aug '06 09:51
    Originally posted by amannion
    it seems to me that religions are about pretty much the same as science...
    bwahahahaha! ahahahahhh this thread's killing me.
  3. Standard memberamannion
    Andrew Mannion
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    14 Aug '06 11:49
    Originally posted by Anonymousnumber1
    bwahahahaha! ahahahahhh this thread's killing me.
    Great, maybe that'll shut up your whining ....
  4. Standard memberAnonymousnumber1
    Just call me
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    14 Aug '06 12:10
    That will never happen.
  5. Donationrwingett
    Ming the Merciless
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    14 Aug '06 13:00
    Originally posted by amannion
    Maybe not in your strict terms, but the reality of actually being an atheist is that you make that choice as a way of framing the world around you.

    'I refuse to believe in a God', the atheist says, by which s/he then understands the world.
    Atheism is not a way of framing the world. Knowing that I am an atheist will never tell you what I believe. It will only tell you what I do not believe.
  6. Joined
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    14 Aug '06 15:37
    Originally posted by scottishinnz
    Bull. God knows everything that has, is an will happen. Not only that, he is there. He was there when Eve ate the apple. He was there when that cancer started. He made her with full knowlege she;d get cancer. What a total w*nker.
    but she still wouldnt even have life, and you wouldnt either so why blame god?
  7. Standard memberscottishinnz
    Kichigai!
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    14 Aug '06 20:56
    Originally posted by EcstremeVenom
    but she still wouldnt even have life, and you wouldnt either so why blame god?
    Prove that God exists and that God gave her life, and I might agree. However, it's just all too unlikely for me.
  8. Upstate NY
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    14 Aug '06 22:11
    Hi everyone,

    Just got back from work and had my supper. I just wanted to add one final post to this thread before I get back to playing chess. 😀

    I hope I personally haven't offended anyone by my verbal mannerisms (I realize that the Christian position is largely unpopular; I've lived with that fact all my life), but if the message of Christ has offended, I make no apologies and want to publicly state that I am not ashamed of the gospel or the One who first propounded it. I read the account of the woman who contracted cancer and was deeply touched; I think I thought about that story more than any other part of this thread. The agony and the pathos of such situations can hardly be overstated; such things are sobering and, I hope, a reminder that we must take seriously our human condition and that there are some things over which we have no control. Again, I hope I do not offend, but the woman and her family are in my prayers and my hope is that God's gracious and loving hand may be upon them.

    Such situations can often engender anger and frustration, and I understand that (I'm guilty of raging against God myself on more occassions than I can list). Thus I offer no arguments concerning that situation out of respect for my fellow humans, though if you wish to cross-examine me further, please feel free to PM or e-mail me.

    Just remember: there are no ordinary human beings. You and I have never met one and never will.

    God bless. Hope to see you over the board sometime. 🙂
  9. Standard memberamannion
    Andrew Mannion
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    14 Aug '06 22:39
    Originally posted by rwingett
    Atheism is not a way of framing the world. Knowing that I am an atheist will never tell you what I believe. It will only tell you what I do not believe.
    Maybe, but as a part of the whole package that is you, it helps to create a view of the world for you - you operate, even if subconsciously, from the perspectives of who you are, and that includes your decision to be an atheist.
  10. Donationrwingett
    Ming the Merciless
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    15 Aug '06 05:16
    Originally posted by amannion
    Maybe, but as a part of the whole package that is you, it helps to create a view of the world for you - you operate, even if subconsciously, from the perspectives of who you are, and that includes your decision to be an atheist.
    You have the cause and effect backwards. Being an atheist didn't make me who I am. Who I am has made me an atheist. Likewise, my atheism did not create my world view. It was my world view which caused me to become an atheist. Atheism is the end result in the causal chain, and not the antecedant.
  11. Standard memberamannion
    Andrew Mannion
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    15 Aug '06 06:00
    Originally posted by rwingett
    You have the cause and effect backwards. Being an atheist didn't make me who I am. Who I am has made me an atheist. Likewise, my atheism did not create my world view. It was my world view which caused me to become an atheist. Atheism is the end result in the causal chain, and not the antecedant.
    Perhaps, but you're suggesting that who you are and what makes you up is over, done with, finito. I'm suggesting that who we are and what makes us so, is an ongoing process.
    Who you are made you an atheist, which now makes you who you are, and so on and on.

    It doesn't just stop.
    Unless you're dead.

    (You're not dead are you? That'd be freaky!)
  12. Standard memberKellyJay
    Walk your Faith
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    15 Aug '06 17:37
    Originally posted by scottishinnz
    Re atheism as a self-defeating construct.

    There is a difference between not believing in God and believing that there is no God. Most atheists simply state that there is no evidence for God, indeed there is evidence to the contrary (if the bible is to be believed as "God's word"😉.
    If you make that the claim that you can use the Bible to disprove
    than you have introduced evidence that there is a God too, you
    cannot have it both ways.
    Kelly
  13. Standard memberKellyJay
    Walk your Faith
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    15 Aug '06 17:42
    Originally posted by rwingett
    Atheism makes no claims as to the ultimate truth, or any other truth. It affirms nothing.
    Doesn't making the claim that something isn't real a claim of
    knowledge?
    Kelly
  14. Standard memberKellyJay
    Walk your Faith
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    15 Aug '06 17:53
    Originally posted by scottishinnz
    I'm afraid I must find in favour of the late Professor Gould. Whilst theism has many "nice" features for the believee, it is ultimately setting people up for a tremendous fall should it be found to be false. Likewise, as is normally pointed out, many wars have been conducted, and still are, in the name of religion. In one of the other threads (the on ...[text shortened]... take a whizz on themwere they on fire - after all, that's obviously God's will too.....
    "...ultimately setting people up for a tremendous fall should it be
    found to be false." You think the theist has a bad way to go if they
    are wrong, that is nothing compared to the atheist and agnostic
    should their belief in the God variable be wrong. There have been
    many wars for a variety of reasons, not all of which had religion
    as the center and of those, basically it wasn't always the religion
    that was really the root cause, just the justification to do what the
    people wanted to do at the time.
    The other stuff is you brought up can be talked about, but only
    shows us we live in a dangerous world nothing more.
    Kelly
  15. Standard memberKellyJay
    Walk your Faith
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    15 Aug '06 17:59
    Originally posted by vistesd
    Ah! I don't know if I'm a constructivist!??!

    But now I think I see what you're getting at though, about framing. And, yes, I dropped the framing I grew up with and held studiously for most of my adult life (which was Christian theist). I am mostly a Zennist (and as a Zen Buddhist I would likely be a heretic too). The idea is to see what happen ...[text shortened]... There, that’s better.”

    The students look at him disconcertedly. The roshi just smiles...
    Funny, but didn't address the issue, it only would if he were the center
    of the universe. His little dot wasn't on the wall if it was only on his
    glasses, his little dot wouldn't be seen by anyone not looking through
    or at his glasses, unless someone put them on with eyes that allowed
    them to see. That did not stop a dot being on the wall from being
    there that they all could see, just as they all were looking at the
    "wall" in the room, so there are things that lump us all together even if
    we don't like to admit it.
    Kelly
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