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Spirituality

Spirituality

  1. 17 May '18 04:38 / 3 edits
    Assuming what the Bible says is true, who here believes they are good enough on their own to enter the Kingdom of Heaven? (And that they would actually qualify to be saved by their works) Speak now or forever hold your peace.

    I believe all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. If you believe you haven't sinned and don't fall short, feel free to speak up, let us all know what exactly you do that you think can save you.

    PS: I wonder if Rajk will pitch up eventually...
  2. 17 May '18 05:34
    Right.

    All men fall short and can only enter the Kingdom of God through the grace of God.

    There are no works that I can do to "earn" anything, and even what works I do on Earth, if they are truly good, it can only be because I received the good graces to truly make them good. For when I do something that is of my own will, there is sure to be some stain upon it that comes from my selfish motivations.

    This might sound overly pessimistic to non-Christians but, honestly, how could you look at the human condition and not feel a bit of pessimism. I think we would be dealing with some pretty hardcore "selective pessimism" to suddenly say that Christianity is getting it wrong.
  3. Subscriber FMF
    Main Poster
    17 May '18 05:49
    Originally posted by @philokalia
    There are no works that I can do to "earn" anything, and even what works I do on Earth, if they are truly good, it can only be because I received the good graces to truly make them good. For when I do something that is of my own will, there is sure to be some stain upon it that comes from my selfish motivations.

    This might sound overly pessimistic to non-Christians but, honestly, how could you look at the human condition and not feel a bit of pessimism. I think we would be dealing with some pretty hardcore "selective pessimism" to suddenly say that Christianity is getting it wrong.


    Well, you subscribe to a religion that tells you that "All men fall short and can only enter the Kingdom of God through the grace of God" so you can only answer the way you have ~ otherwise you would be deviating from your religious indoctrination.

    Would you perhaps concede that Christianity presents itself as the only psychological escape from the profoundly misanthropic state of mind that Christianity itself propagates?
  4. 17 May '18 06:01
    Originally posted by @fmf
    [b]There are no works that I can do to "earn" anything, and even what works I do on Earth, if they are truly good, it can only be because I received the good graces to truly make them good. For when I do something that is of my own will, there is sure to be some stain upon it that comes from my selfish motivations.

    This might sound overly pessimistic to non ...[text shortened]... gical escape from the profoundly misanthropic state of mind that Christianity itself propagates?
    If you were to measure yourself by Biblical standards do you fall short or not?
  5. Subscriber FMF
    Main Poster
    17 May '18 06:04
    Originally posted by @philokalia
    Right.

    All men fall short and can only enter the Kingdom of God through the grace of God.

    There are no works that I can do to "earn" anything, and even what works I do on Earth, if they are truly good, it can only be because I received the good graces to truly make them good. For when I do something that is of my own will, there is sure to be som ...[text shortened]... ome pretty hardcore "selective pessimism" to suddenly say that Christianity is getting it wrong.
    I think Christianity pisses on people's backs, tells them it's raining, and then offers them an Emperor's New Umbrella.
  6. Standard member Romans1009
    Retire tiger?
    17 May '18 06:13
    Originally posted by @fmf
    I think Christianity pisses on people's backs, tells them it's raining, and then offers them an Emperor's New Umbrella.
    You (obviously) haven’t reviewed the evidence for Jesus Christ’s Resurrection. But you’re not alone. Few atheists have.
  7. 17 May '18 06:20
    Originally posted by @fmf
    I think Christianity pisses on people's backs, tells them it's raining, and then offers them an Emperor's New Umbrella.
    What on earth gave you this epiphany? I understand it is difficult to admit the truth about yourself, i.e that you fall short of the glory of God.
  8. Standard member Romans1009
    Retire tiger?
    17 May '18 06:26
    Originally posted by @fmf
    [b]There are no works that I can do to "earn" anything, and even what works I do on Earth, if they are truly good, it can only be because I received the good graces to truly make them good. For when I do something that is of my own will, there is sure to be some stain upon it that comes from my selfish motivations.

    This might sound overly pessimistic to non ...[text shortened]... gical escape from the profoundly misanthropic state of mind that Christianity itself propagates?
    You’re arguing (or attempting to argue) from the position of Christianity being false. Unfortunately for you, evidence for the belief that man is sinful exists independent of Christianity.
  9. 17 May '18 07:26 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by @dj2becker
    Assuming what the Bible says is true, who here believes they are good enough on their own to enter the Kingdom of Heaven? (And that they would actually qualify to be saved by their works) Speak now or forever hold your peace.

    I believe all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. If you believe you haven't sinned and don't fall short, feel free ...[text shortened]... exactly you do that you think can save you.

    PS: I wonder if Rajk will pitch up eventually...
    In the gospel preached by Jesus during His ministry:
    Jesus calls His followers to become one with God as He was one with God.
    Jesus calls His followers to become sons of God as He was a son of God.
    Jesus calls His followers to become righteous as He was righteous.

    In the gospel preached by Jesus during His ministry:
    Jesus taught what is and is not righteous.
    Jesus taught what is required for "eternal life" / "the kingdom"

    Jesus taught that ultimately what is required for "eternal life" / "the kingdom" is transformation into a righteous being: from a "slave" to a "son", from one "born of the flesh" to one "born of the spirit", from a "bad tree" to a "good tree". A "son" no longer commits sin, one "born of the spirit" no longer commits sin, a "good tree" no longer commits sin. In short, one must become one with God as He was one with God. One must become a son of God as he was a son of God.

    Based on your question, it would seem that you don't believe the gospel preached by Jesus during His ministry. The many who believe as you do, do so because it is self-serving to do so.

    Matthew 5
    20“For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.
    48“Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
  10. Standard member Romans1009
    Retire tiger?
    17 May '18 07:29
    Originally posted by @thinkofone
    In the gospel preached by Jesus during His ministry:
    Jesus calls His followers to become one with God as He was one with God.
    Jesus calls His followers to become sons of God as He was a son of God.
    Jesus calls His followers to become righteous as He was righteous.

    In the gospel preached by Jesus during His ministry:
    Jesus taught what is and ...[text shortened]... uestion, it would seem that you don't believe the gospel preached by Jesus during His ministry.
    And based on your answer, it would seem you’re avoiding his question.
  11. Standard member Romans1009
    Retire tiger?
    17 May '18 07:31
    Originally posted by @thinkofone
    In the gospel preached by Jesus during His ministry:
    Jesus calls His followers to become one with God as He was one with God.
    Jesus calls His followers to become sons of God as He was a son of God.
    Jesus calls His followers to become righteous as He was righteous.

    In the gospel preached by Jesus during His ministry:
    Jesus taught what is and ...[text shortened]... the kingdom of heaven.
    48“Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
    Of course, you fail to acknowledge that the purpose of the law was to show man his need for a Saviour and that God never expected man to be able to perfectly keep the law, which is why He allowed animal sacrifices to atone for sins.
  12. 17 May '18 07:33
    Originally posted by @romans1009
    And based on your answer, it would seem you’re avoiding his question.
    Those who ask the question do so because they don't believe the gospel preached by Jesus during His ministry. They don't believe His gospel, because it is self-serving to do so.
  13. Standard member Romans1009
    Retire tiger?
    17 May '18 07:42
    Originally posted by @thinkofone
    Those who ask the question do so because they don't believe the gospel preached by Jesus during His ministry. They don't believe His gospel, because it is self-serving to do so.
    You just say the same thing over and over. Do you have the same two or three paragraphs all set to copy and paste?

    What happened to “Then there’s reality?” I liked that catch phrase. How come you don’t use it anymore?
  14. 17 May '18 07:50
    Originally posted by @romans1009
    Of course, you fail to acknowledge that the purpose of the law was to show man his need for a Saviour and that God never expected man to be able to perfectly keep the law, which is why He allowed animal sacrifices to atone for sins.
    ...God never expected man to be able to perfectly keep the law...

    Actually God did:
    Ezekiel 18
    26“When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and dies because of it, for his iniquity which he has committed he will die. 27“Again, when a wicked man turns away from his wickedness which he has committed and practices justice and righteousness, he will save his life. 28“Because he considered and turned away from all his transgressions which he had committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 29“But the house of Israel says, ‘The way of the Lord is not right.’ Are My ways not right, O house of Israel? Is it not your ways that are not right?

    30“Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, each according to his conduct,” declares the Lord GOD. “Repent and turn away from all your transgressions, so that iniquity may not become a stumbling block to you. 31“Cast away from you all your transgressions which you have committed and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! For why will you die, O house of Israel? 32“For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies,” declares the Lord GOD. “Therefore, repent and live.”

    ...which is why He allowed animal sacrifices to atone for sins...

    Actually the later OT prophets recognized that God no longer wanted sacrifice:
    Isaiah 1
    11“The multitude of your sacrifices—what are they to me?” says the Lord. “I have more than enough of burnt offerings,of rams and the fat of fattened animals; I have no pleasure in the blood of bulls and lambs and goats.
    12 Stop bringing meaningless offerings!...
    15 ...our hands are full of blood!
    16Wash and make yourselves clean. Take your evil deeds out of my sight; stop doing wrong.
    17Learn to do right; seek justice. Defend the oppressed.a Take up the cause of the fatherless; plead the case of the widow.
    18“Come now, let us settle the matter,” says the Lord. “Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red as crimson, they shall be like wool.
    19If you are willing and obedient, you will eat the good things of the land;
    20but if you resist and rebel, you will be devoured by the sword.”

    As with many other things, you are plain wrong.
  15. Standard member Romans1009
    Retire tiger?
    17 May '18 07:59
    Originally posted by @thinkofone
    [b]...God never expected man to be able to perfectly keep the law...

    Actually God did:
    Ezekiel 18
    26“When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and dies because of it, for his iniquity which he has committed he will die. 27“Again, when a wicked man turns away from his wickedness which he has committed and practices ...[text shortened]... nd rebel, you will be devoured by the sword.”

    As with many other things, you are plain wrong.[/b]
    Are you claiming God did not allow animal sacrifices to atone for sins? What you’re citing is God giving His standard - perfection. No one could live up to that standard, which is why He permitted animal sacrifices to atone for sins.

    “But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

    But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

    Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

    But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

    For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.”

    (Galatians 3:22-26)