Originally posted by jaywill
Ckoh1965,


Yes, I do quote the Bible. I at least try always to include directly or indirectly some portion of the Bible. That is true.

The reason for this is based upon my own experience as a former skeptic, unbeliever, and opposer to the Christian faith.

I had many many arguments. Most of the content of those arguments I don't remem ...[text shortened]... an uncreated and eternal God of limitless power and wisdom created it from nothing.

Nicely put.

Originally posted by LemonJello
Er...no. What makes the concept of God "unreal" is that it fails to be instantiated. That doesn't necessarily mean that the concept itself has no utility, but let's keep it in the proper perspective. Maybe something like vistesd's interpretation of "God as story".

I apologize in advance but there is such a thing as someone knowing what their [sic Now go find those people who know what they are talking about, and try to emulate them.

"Instantiated?" "Utility?" Who the hell do you think you are talking to here? Using words like that is like putting pepper in pudding: it just doesn't fit the rest of the dish.

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
"Instantiated?" "Utility?" Who the hell do you think you are talking to here? Using words like that is like putting pepper in pudding: it just doesn't fit the rest of the dish.

You're still floating around? I thought we flushed.

Originally posted by jaywill
[b]"Jehovah hand is not so short that it cannot save; Nor is His ear so heavy that it cannot hear.

But your iniquities have become a separation between you and your God, and your sins have hidden His face from you so that He does not hear" (Isaiah 59:1,2)

Men's iniquities had made a SEPARATION between them and God.

We don't bel ...[text shortened]... you will be separated for eternity.

I think it is well worth putting to the test.[/b]

Man, are you listening to yourself? Go pray that God might make you a more inspirational witness.

Originally posted by jaywill
To all Intellectuals,

What makes God unreal to you is your sins. The barrier between you and the real experience of the heavenly Father is not what you don't know about history, archeology, textural criticism, the history of doctrine, Roman politics, Hebrew tradition, Greek language, science, astronomy.

The barrier between you and the living God is rier, the separation between you and knowing God lies in the real guilt of your real sins.

You are so right. I have always known that what my mother told me in my childhood had to be all the Truth there is. I'm going to call on the name of Jesus right now.

Jesus, I acknowledge that I am a sinner in rebellion. I admit that I devoted my life to learning and logic, and this clouded my vision from the Truth of your Holy Word. I know that you are the Son of God, and I believe you when you say that if I confess my sin you are faithful to wash my wicked heart clean. Please, Jesus, come into my heart. I will serve you now. Thank you for doing this and thank you for sending your diligent servant, jaywill. He persistent preaching pierced the black cloud that covered my mind. Bless him, Lord. Amen.

Thak u for leeding mi to CHRIST.
I kan feel the already chaynge in mi.

Originally posted by dj2becker
Uhh... Oookay... So who then made man?

The Sun.

Originally posted by dj2becker
You don't get it, do you?

If the gospel of John was written in the 60s it means John was still alive and he wrote it. That means that it was written by an eyewitness who saw and heard what Jesus said and did.

The same applies to the rest of the gospels. Why do you think there is such a clear correspondence between them?

No, deej, you still refuse to get the point. If John wrote things down 60 years after they happened, he at best must have been a very old man, a minimum of what? 80? Life expectency isn't that high even now, except in a few scandinavian countries and Japan, it certainly would have been much lower then. Of course, he may have been a child when he "witnessed" these things, but I don't believe that either.

Originally posted by jaywill
[b]"Jehovah hand is not so short that it cannot save; Nor is His ear so heavy that it cannot hear.

But your iniquities have become a separation between you and your God, and your sins have hidden His face from you so that He does not hear" (Isaiah 59:1,2)

Men's iniquities had made a SEPARATION between them and God.

We don't bel ...[text shortened]... you will be separated for eternity.

I think it is well worth putting to the test.[/b]

I find it disturbing that I am 'automatically' a sinner, and more so for not believing in your God. Does it matter at all if a person is kind-hearted and always do good to/for others, but doesn't believe in your God? Does it matter at all if a person behaves in such a way that coincidentally agrees with all that is 'recommended' in the bible, but yet that person doesn't believe in your God?

I like that last bit about having to lose only my pride if the bible is wrong; and yet if it's right then I'll be separated for eternity. In fact, this line is not original. I have heard of it before. There is a tint of 'blackmail' in it. You better believe me, you have nothing to lose. But if you didn't, and if I'm correct, then you'll end up in hell!

Originally posted by rwingett
I'm afraid it's you who doesn't get it, DJ.

The authorship of John is an open question. The fact is that we don't know who wrote it. It could have been someone named John, or it could have been attributed to John.

The gospels agree in many spots (but certainly not all spots) because the texts were altered in many instances to make them agree more. Pl ...[text shortened]... e many other gospels that didn't make it into the bible that may have been more authentic.

There are a lot of historical writers that also write about Jesus. I have a lot of other evidence as well. But it would be a waste of time for me to go into all of that. It seems with the amount of skepticm that you use, it is impossible for you to believe anything from history.

So the question to you is, how do you test truth?

Originally posted by dj2becker
There are a lot of historical writers that also write about Jesus.

Name a few.

Originally posted by David C
Name a few.

Historian Flavius Josephus, Historian Tacitus, Historian Pliny the younger, Historian Suetotonius, Historian Phlegon, Historian Lucian of Samosata, Emperor Hadrian, just to name of few. Most of them were unbelievers by the way...

Just by the way, you said that you beleived in the historicity of Mohammed but not of Jesus. Do you know that Mohammed actually wrote about Jesus in the Quar'an?

You still have not answered my question on why you accept Mohammed and reject Jesus as a historical figure.

Originally posted by David C
The Sun.

You really believe this?

Do you have any evidence for this, or is it simply a matter of faith?

Btw: Who made the Sun?

Originally posted by dj2becker
just to name of few. Most of them were unbelievers by the way...

Historian Flavius Josephus, -snip-. Most of them were unbelievers by the way...

All of which have been throughly debunked as authentic, most epsecially Josephus. Seems to me an honest Seeker of the Truth might know that already.

Do you know that Mohammed actually wrote about Jesus in the Quar'an?

Great. Therefore, John 3:16?

You still have not answered my question on why you accept Mohammed and reject Jesus as a historical figure

While you're waiting for my answer, perhaps you'd like to check what I actually wrote.

Originally posted by dj2becker
You really believe this?

Do you have any evidence for this, or is it simply a matter of faith?

Btw: Who made the Sun?

Yes.

I, personally, have no evidence. There are numerous avenues you might choose to discover the evidence for yourself, including many fine higher learning institutions where you can learn about subjects like biology and evolution. In all the scientific models I've ever seen, the energy being poured out from the sun is an integral part of the development and sustenance of life. In fact, as the sun is burning itself out (almost imperceptable to us), one might even make the simile that it is "giving it's life so that we may live". Sound familiar?

Btw: Who made the Sun?

dj, do you understand that this is not a reasonable question? You might try something like "where did the Sun come from?" or "Why does the Sun exist?", but phrasing the question in this manner is called "question begging".

Originally posted by David C
Historian Flavius Josephus, -snip-. Most of them were unbelievers by the way...

All of which have been throughly debunked as authentic, most epsecially Josephus. Seems to me an honest Seeker of the Truth might know that already.

Do you know that Mohammed actually wrote about Jesus in the Quar'an?

Great. Therefore, John 3:16?

You /b]

While you're waiting for my answer, perhaps you'd like to check what I actually wrote.

All of which have been throughly debunked as authentic, most epsecially Josephus. Seems to me an honest Seeker of the Truth might know that already.

What? By whom? You want me just to take your word for it?

Flavius Josephus is widely recognised as one of the greatest first-century historians.

(See http://members.aol.com/FLJOSEPHUS/life.htm, maintained by independant scholar G.J. Goldberg.)

Great. Therefore, John 3:16?

I admit it's a lot more complex than that... I have plenty of reason to believe that Mohammed was a false prophet and that Jesus was whom he claimed to be, the son of God.

While you're waiting for my answer, perhaps you'd like to check what I actually wrote.

I know exactly what you wrote. Do you maintain that you intended some ambiguity?