Why attack the apostle Paul?

Paul was probably the best educated of all the Apostles. He was ideally suited for the task of bringing the gospel to the gentiles, as he was raised in Tarsus, and was a Roman citizen, thusly he could travel freely. His occupation was as a tent maker, and he could earn money wherever he went. He was a Pharisee, and the son of a Pharisee, so he knew the Jewish law.

Paul truly loved Christ whom he had never physically met, and that is probably the greatest test of his authenticity (IMHO)

Originally posted by jaywill
badwater,

[b]========================================

Precisely the reason John the Baptizer was so incredibly popular, and so radical in his message, was that he was preaching salvation

=============================================

What would you point to to demonstrate that John the Baptist was preaching a means of salvation at all ?[/b]

*edited because I misread*

At the risk of answering a question with a question, I would ask: How is baptism not a means of salvation and covenant with God? Certainly salvation is more than just baptism, and baptism is not the only means of covenant with God; but it is self-evident to me. If it isn't that way to another then they have a different interpretation. But to me, a rite that washes away sins is a means of salvation, is it not?

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
There are many that believe that they can continue to sin and have "eternal life"/"heaven"/"salvation". I gather that this idea is borne of the teachings of Paul. This is not what Jesus taught.

Your rejection of the teachings of Paul is indicative of your ignorance of the Bible in general, and specifically that you are void of the Spirit of Christ.

If Jesus didn't die for your sins, then you will die in your sins.

Originally posted by jaywill
badwater,

[b]========================================

Precisely the reason John the Baptizer was so incredibly popular, and so radical in his message, was that he was preaching salvation

=============================================

What would you point to to demonstrate that John the Baptist was preaching a means of salvation at all ?[/b]

"John the baptizer appeared in the wilderness, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. And there went out to him all the country of Judea, and all the people of Jerusalem; and they were baptized by him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins" Mk 1: 4-5

And scripturally I would point to this.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Jesus taught salvation through righteousness. Is that what Paul taught?

You can say that "he was only doing what he was told to do", but you only have Paul's word.

I posted this in another thread. Look at the following.

Romans 7:15-25
"...but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin...I do not understand...I am doing the very thing I hate...no t down and thrown into the fire. 20 [b]So then, you will know them by their fruits."[/b]

"Jesus taught salvation through righteousness. Is that what Paul taught?"

Yes,That is what he taught.


"You can say that "he was only doing what he was told to do", but you only have Paul's word."

Paul was recognized by disciples(specifically Peter and James) of Jesus. Where they wrong when they did that in Acts15 and Galatians2?
Galatians 2:7-9
(7) But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;
(8) (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles: )
(9) And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.


I think what Paul describes in Romans7 is something that all believers struggle with to one degree or another. Until Jesus the time Jesus meets us in the air, we still will have this corrupt body. But he helps us with that too.1Co 10:13
1 Corinthians 15:49-51
(49) And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
(50) Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
(51) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
The righteousness is from God. It is by faithfulness. Jesus taught faithfulness by obeying his words by keeping the Law. I believe they have to continue this till they die to fulfill this. Is this what it says?
Paul preached faithfulness by believing the word. By which he imediatly redeems us for his service. Galatians 2:20
(20) I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Ephesians 1:13-14
(13) In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
(14) Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.



Romans 4:4-5
(4) Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
(5) But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
James 2:20
(20) But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
James 2:24
(24) Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

God rewards the faithful and he justifies those who obey. Both ways are ultimately made possible by Jesus.John 14:6
(6) Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.


I believe that when you understand this reply by James,you will understand why Jesus called Paul.
Acts 15:14-19
(14) Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
(15) And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
(16) After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
(17) That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
(18) Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
(19) Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:


Romans 11:29-32
(29) For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
(30) For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their(ISRAEL's) unbelief:
(31) Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
(32) For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Originally posted by josephw
Your rejection of the teachings of Paul is indicative of your ignorance of the Bible in general, and specifically that you are void of the Spirit of Christ.

If Jesus didn't die for your sins, then you will die in your sins.

Your rejection of the teachings of Jesus is indicative of your ingnorance of a true prophet.

Originally posted by SmoothCowboy
"Jesus taught salvation through righteousness. Is that what Paul taught?"

Yes,That is what he taught.


"You can say that "he was only doing what he was told to do", but you only have Paul's word."

Paul was recognized by disciples(specifically Peter and James) of Jesus. Where they wrong when they did that in Acts15 and Galatians2?
Galatian ...[text shortened]... .
(32) For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Let me rephrase since I suspect that we have different ideas of what true "righteousness" is. Jesus taught that you cannot continue to sin and have "the kingdom of God"/"eternal life"/"heaven"/"salvation" etc.

From what I can tell, you've pretty much defended Paul by using the words of Paul.

Let's try this a different way. Do you believe that Jesus was saying that a true prophet does not sin? If not, what was He saying?

Originally posted by duecer
Paul was probably the best educated of all the Apostles. He was ideally suited for the task of bringing the gospel to the gentiles, as he was raised in Tarsus, and was a Roman citizen, thusly he could travel freely. His occupation was as a tent maker, and he could earn money wherever he went. He was a Pharisee, and the son of a Pharisee, so he knew the Jewish ...[text shortened]... m he had never physically met, and that is probably the greatest test of his authenticity (IMHO)

"Paul truly loved Christ whom he had never physically met, and that is probably the greatest test of his authenticity (IMHO)"

Greater than the test given by Jesus?

Matthew 7:15-20
15 "Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? 17 So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 So then, you will know them by their fruits."

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Let me rephrase since I suspect that we have different ideas of what true "righteousness" is. Jesus taught that you cannot continue to sin and have "the kingdom of God"/"eternal life"/"heaven"/"salvation" etc.

From what I can tell, you've pretty much defended Paul by using the words of Paul.

Let's try this a different way. Do you believe that Jesus was saying that a true prophet does not sin? If not, what was He saying?

When you are saying this,Do you realize you sound like you don't sin anymore and are better than Paul?

Do you believe Acts is reliable?

I think our definitions of righteous are probably close. I know we are not on the same page on how to attain righteousness.
Honestly if I were to try to do it the way you do, I would feel like I would be violating these words.Mat 23:28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

Mark 10:18
(18) And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
Job 14:4
(4) Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one.
If I be righteous it is not by the works of my flesh.

Those that are "righteous" confess their sins for forgiveness.

1 John 1:8-10
(8) If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
(9) If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
(10) If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
I understand who alone is perfectly righteous. That is where we get it.
Romans 4:5-7
(5) But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
(6) Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
(7) Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

Gal 1:1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead; )
1 Timothy 1:12-17
(12) And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;
(13) Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.
(14) And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.
(15) This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
(16) Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.
(17) Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.





Galatians 2:20-21
(20) I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
(21) I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
[b]"Paul truly loved Christ whom he had never physically met, and that is probably the greatest test of his authenticity (IMHO)"

Greater than the test given by Jesus?

Matthew 7:15-20
15 "Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gat ...[text shortened]... ruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 So then, you will know them by their fruits."[/b]

Did Paul produce fruit that was bad? His ministry was fruitful wasn't it? Why was Peter forgiven? He denied Jesus three times? Would that be bad fruit?

Originally posted by SmoothCowboy
When you are saying this,Do you realize you sound like you don't sin anymore and are better than Paul?

Do you believe Acts is reliable?

I think our definitions of righteous are probably close. I know we are not on the same page on how to attain righteousness.
Honestly if I were to try to do it the way you do, I would feel like I would be rustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

"Honestly if I were to try to do it the way you do, I would feel like I would be violating these words.Mat 23:28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

This makes little sense to me. If one is truly righteous, there is no inner "hypocisy and iniquity." Jesus was rebuking the scribes and Pharisees who covered their iniquity with a veneer of righteousness.

As to Mark 10:18, there is a wide gulf between overcoming sin and being God.

As to 1 John 1:8-10, try reading it in context.
1 John 1:5-7
This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; 7 but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.

"Light" is righteousness. "Darkness" is sin. Note that John stipulates that we must "walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light" for the "blood of Jesus His Son [to cleanse] us from all sin." In 8-10, John is speaking of sin committed prior to walking the walk. It is a reminder that all have committed sin.

The rest appears to be, once again, using the words of Paul to defend Paul.

Once again, let's try this a different way. Do you believe that Jesus was saying that a true prophet does not sin? If not, what was He saying?

Originally posted by SmoothCowboy
Did Paul produce fruit that was bad? His ministry was fruitful wasn't it? Why was Peter forgiven? He denied Jesus three times? Would that be bad fruit?

Is sin "bad fruit" or "good fruit"?

Jesus is seeking to change the hearts of men, not just their actions. A man of means can do any manner of "good deeds", but if his heart remains unpure, it is not "good fruit". People often do "right things" for the wrong reasons.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Is sin "bad fruit" or "good fruit"?

Jesus is seeking to change the hearts of men, not just their actions. A man of means can do any manner of "good deeds", but if his heart remains unpure, it is not "good fruit". People often do "right things" for the wrong reasons.

But you miss the point. An action done for the wrong reasons , even though it may seem a good deed , does not lead to good fruit. Good fruit is good fruit , bad fruit is bad fruit. Jesus said that by their fruits you shall know them. Therefore , if Paul bore good fruit then that's the end of the matter. Period.


BTW- How are the hearts of men changed so that they become good trees? Would it be a matter of willpower?

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
[b]"Paul truly loved Christ whom he had never physically met, and that is probably the greatest test of his authenticity (IMHO)"

Greater than the test given by Jesus?

Matthew 7:15-20
15 "Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gat ...[text shortened]... ruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 So then, you will know them by their fruits."[/b]

his love for Christ is fruit.

Galatians 5:22-23

22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

Originally posted by knightmeister
But you miss the point. An action done for the wrong reasons , even though it may seem a good deed , does not lead to good fruit. Good fruit is good fruit , bad fruit is bad fruit. Jesus said that by their fruits you shall know them. Therefore , if Paul bore good fruit then that's the end of the matter. Period.


BTW- How are the hearts of men changed so that they become good trees? Would it be a matter of willpower?

Is sin "bad fruit" or "good fruit"?