1. Joined
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    17 Jul '08 23:14
    Their has been a great deal of bashing of the Paul the apostle. He only doing what he was told to do.

    Ephesians 3:1-15
    (1) For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
    (2) If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
    (3) How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
    (4) Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
    (5) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
    (6) That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
    (7) Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
    (8) Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
    (9) And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
    (10) To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
    (11) According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
    (12) In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.
    (13) Wherefore I desire that ye faint not at my tribulations for you, which is your glory.
    (14) For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
    (15) Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,

    Acts 26:15-22
    (15) And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest.
    (16) But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;
    (17) Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,
    (18) To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
    (19) Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:
    (20) But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.
    (21) For these causes the Jews caught me in the temple, and went about to kill me.
    (22) Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:

    1 Timothy 1:11-17
    (11) According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.
    (12) And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;
    (13) Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.
    (14) And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.
    (15) This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
    (16) Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.
    (17) Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

    And if you look into this farther. You find he has been recognized by many of the disciples of Jesus.
  2. Joined
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    17 Jul '08 23:57
    In the NT you'll find 3 theologies at work, that of John the Baptizer, that of Jesus of Nazareth, and that of Saul/Paul. It may seem like people such as myself bash on Paul, but that's only because from my perspective there are instances where Paul declares something and if it doesn't align with what Jesus teaches or does, well I'll be danged if Jesus doesn't get short shrift. I don't understand it, I do not espouse it, and I'm certainly not going to parrot it.
  3. Joined
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    18 Jul '08 00:294 edits
    Originally posted by Badwater
    In the NT you'll find 3 theologies at work, that of John the Baptizer, that of Jesus of Nazareth, and that of Saul/Paul. It may seem like people such as myself bash on Paul, but that's only because from my perspective there are instances where Paul declares something and if it doesn't align with what Jesus teaches or does, well I'll be danged if Jesus doesn ft. I don't understand it, I do not espouse it, and I'm certainly not going to parrot it.
    =============================
    from my perspective there are instances where Paul declares something and if it doesn't align with what Jesus teaches or does, well I'll be danged if Jesus doesn't get short shrift. I don't understand it,
    ====================================


    Could you give me an example?

    What did Paul teach which Jesus did not teach?

    I think the examples are highly questionable and not many are substantially significant to the larger picture.

    But you may just find some instances of things talked about which were not mentioned specifically by Jesus.

    My proposal was that Paul was EXTREMLY faithly to the message of Christ - EXTREMLY faithful in all regards.

    When he DID give his opinion he warned us that it was coming and that he has no direct command from God.

    So let me see your example of serious discrepency between Christ and His Apostle our Christian brother Paul.
  4. Joined
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    18 Jul '08 00:431 edit
    Originally posted by SmoothCowboy
    [b]Their has been a great deal of bashing of the Paul the apostle. He only doing what he was told to do.
    It is nothing personal, rather, it is just people who have a problem with a particular theology being spelled out as does not seem to be spelled out in its entirety in other places in the Bible. Case in point is the doctrine that we are all born in sin and thus all sinners. We are given clues to this in other parts of the Bible such as Adams fall in the garden but it is not spelled out as well as Paul does. Therefore, if you theology conflicts with this view the natural thing to do is to attack the man who conflicts with your own view.

    Paul was a very articulate man who was well versed in Judism and, therefore, he was a natural choice to provide Christiandom with the most influential voice in the New Testament. I am just glad he did not write the entire New Testament, just as I am equally glad that no one man wrote the entire Bible. What one man has all the answers? Last I checked there were no perfect people in the world except one, therefore, why would we want someone who is not perfect to dominate the inspired word of God? Ironically, Christ seems to be the only "perfect" man in the Bible, however, he did not even write about himself. Instead, Christ had other people provide testimony about him. After all, which report would you prefer? Would you prefer someone writing about themself as being "perfect" or do you think it more credible for others to bear testimony of this fact?
  5. Joined
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    18 Jul '08 01:39
    Originally posted by jaywill


    Could you give me an example?

    What did Paul teach which Jesus did not teach?... My proposal was that Paul was EXTREMLY faithly to the message of Christ - EXTREMLY faithful in all regards.

    When he DID give his opinion he warned us that it was coming and that he has no direct command from God.

    So let me see your example of serious discrepency between Christ and His Apostle our Christian brother Paul.
    Because this is your perspective I am quite certain that any examples I cite would be dismissed out of hand. You've already made up your mind and I disagree, and there's nothing wrong with that.
  6. Joined
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    18 Jul '08 01:42
    What I think is interesting is that the one Jesus sent to spread the gospel to the gentiles(other nations) is the one they are rejecting when they do this. It is clear that the uncircumcised were not being preached to until after
    Paul was blinded on the road to Damascus. He was obviously part of a great
    ministry God planned. After that God showed this to Peter.

    I am not claiming to know understand everything in the bible. But I can see
    what it says. It grows clearer every time I am in it.
  7. Joined
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    18 Jul '08 01:52
    Originally posted by SmoothCowboy
    ...It is clear that the uncircumcised were not being preached to until after Paul was blinded on the road to Damascus...
    *jaw drops* See, this is what is so confounding to me, is stuff like this. I wasn't going to provide an example but since one is thrown on the board, here goes -

    This assertion could no be more blatantly incorrect. Precisely the reason John the Baptizer was so incredibly popular, and so radical in his message, was that he was preaching salvation in a way that meant that you did not have to have a penis to have salvation and covenant with God. Women could be baptized also, and it was the same covenant performed the same way regardless of whether you were a man or woman.

    Jesus did more than start his ministry when he was baptized. He did more than just command in Matthew that the disciples were to go out and baptize others in his name. He completely endorsed this new means of covenant with God, one that was available to women as well as men. Jesus also preached and taught a salvation that was available to women as well as men, and offered it to non-Jews.

    Example given.
  8. Joined
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    18 Jul '08 02:121 edit
    Originally posted by Badwater
    *jaw drops* See, this is what is so confounding to me, is stuff like this. I wasn't going to provide an example but since one is thrown on the board, here goes -

    This assertion could no be more blatantly incorrect. Precisely the reason John the Baptizer was so incredibly popular, and so radical in his message, was that he was preaching salvation in a way ...[text shortened]... ation that was available to women as well as men, and offered it to non-Jews.

    Example given.
    Isn't that part of the Old covenant?
    Luke 1:68-73
    (68) Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,
    (69) And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;
    (70) As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:
    (71) That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;
    (72) To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;
    (73) The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,
    Romans 11:26-27
    (26) And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
    (27) For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
    Don't forget their is more than one covenant in the Bible.In fact, I think there is several of them.
    Hebrews 8:6-13
    (6) But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
    (7) For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
    (8) For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
    (9) Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
    (10) For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
    (11) And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
    (12) For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
    (13) In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
  9. Joined
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    18 Jul '08 12:211 edit
    Originally posted by Badwater
    Because this is your perspective I am quite certain that any examples I cite would be dismissed out of hand. You've already made up your mind and I disagree, and there's nothing wrong with that.
    Not necessarily. I expect that if you really know what you're talking about I might have to arrange your examples in order.

    some arguably significant,
    some less so,
    some inconsequential,
    but most of no real difference at all.

    Depends on how well you know you're New Testament. I think I will be fair.

    But I do stand by my statement that Paul was very faithful.
  10. Joined
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    18 Jul '08 12:28
    badwater,

    ========================================

    Precisely the reason John the Baptizer was so incredibly popular, and so radical in his message, was that he was preaching salvation

    =============================================


    What would you point to to demonstrate that John the Baptist was preaching a means of salvation at all ?
  11. Joined
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    18 Jul '08 13:501 edit
    Originally posted by SmoothCowboy
    Their has been a great deal of bashing of the Paul the apostle. He only doing what he was told to do.

    Ephesians 3:1-15
    (1) For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
    (2) If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
    (3) How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; ...[text shortened]... f you look into this farther. You find he has been recognized by many of the disciples of Jesus.
    Jesus taught salvation through righteousness. Is that what Paul taught?

    You can say that "he was only doing what he was told to do", but you only have Paul's word.

    I posted this in another thread. Look at the following.

    Romans 7:15-25
    "...but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin...I do not understand...I am doing the very thing I hate...no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me...I know that nothing good dwells in me...the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not....evil is present in me...etc."

    Can it be that Jesus had those like the writer of the above in mind when He said this?:
    Matthew 7:15-20
    15 "Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? 17 So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 So then, you will know them by their fruits."
  12. Joined
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    18 Jul '08 14:041 edit
    =====================================
    Jesus taught salvation through righteousness. Is that what Paul taught?
    =========================================


    Absolutely. But the word "salvation" has different usages in the New Testament.

    But please respect that the Bible can be deep. Not all issues can be quicky discussed in 25 words or less.

    You have to apply some serious study "In what ways and where does the Apostle Paul emphasize righteous living and righteous acts as the means of salvation?"

    There is no shortcut around indepth research in a matter like this for a well rounded and balanced presentation of Paul's teaching.
  13. Joined
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    18 Jul '08 14:11
    Originally posted by jaywill
    [b]=====================================
    Jesus taught salvation through righteousness. Is that what Paul taught?
    =========================================


    Absolutely. But the word "salvation" has different usages in the New Testament.

    But please respect that the Bible can be deep. Not all issues can be quicky discussed in 25 words or less. ...[text shortened]... arch in a matter like this for a well rounded and balanced presentation of Paul's teaching.[/b]
    There are many that believe that they can continue to sin and have "eternal life"/"heaven"/"salvation". I gather that this idea is borne of the teachings of Paul. This is not what Jesus taught.
  14. Standard memberknightmeister
    knightmeister
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    18 Jul '08 17:43
    Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
    Jesus taught salvation through righteousness. Is that what Paul taught?

    You can say that "he was only doing what he was told to do", but you only have Paul's word.

    I posted this in another thread. Look at the following.

    Romans 7:15-25
    "...but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin...I do not understand...I am doing the very thing I hate...no ...[text shortened]... t down and thrown into the fire. 20 [b]So then, you will know them by their fruits.
    "[/b]
    Jesus taught salvation through righteousness. Is that what Paul taught? ------ToO-----------

    Yes , he taught salvation through righteousness , it wasn't self righteousness though. What you don't realise is that Paul and Jesus taught the same thing , the righteousness of the Son (if the Son sets you free you shall be free indeed).

    You place an artificial wedge between Jesus and Paul based on a few selected verses. But one fly in the ointment spoils your party and there are plenty out there.
  15. Standard memberknightmeister
    knightmeister
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    18 Jul '08 17:47
    Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
    There are many that believe that they can continue to sin and have "eternal life"/"heaven"/"salvation". I gather that this idea is borne of the teachings of Paul. This is not what Jesus taught.
    What is eternal life ToO? Think about it. In order to be eternal one must have eternity within one's being. Eternal life is not some abstract sweetie given out by God it is a state of being within one's body. The Son is eternal (the Son abides forever in the house) so having the Son live in you makes you eternal. This is in line with St Paul's teachings also.

    I could cite many verses and teachings of Jesus that show that he intended to live within his followers via the Holy Spirit. Would you be prepared to explore them or do you only want one piece of the jigsaw puzzle?
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