Why Does God Reveal Himself to Some People and Not to Others?

Originally posted by Andrew Hamilton
Hang on; have I misread what you said? Reality check:
When you said:

“…I would say the wind is not making a choice or a selection the process is simply
doing its thing no intent involved…”

did you mean what I thought you meant which was:

“…I would say the wind is not making a choice OR a selection.
THE process is simply doing its thing no ...[text shortened]... I often have incredible difficulty deciphering your statements –my apologies if I misread you 🙂

I'll say the wind blows and that is what it does, it does not have a desire to knock
one apple down, or two, or even thinks about apples it just is.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
I'll say the wind blows and that is what it does, it does not have a desire to knock
one apple down, or two, or even thinks about apples it just is.
Kelly

And that's the same with natural selection. Those that survive pass on their genes and those that don't die out. There is no desire, no intent, it just is.

Originally posted by KellyJay
I'll say the wind blows and that is what it does, it does not have a desire to knock
one apple down, or two, or even thinks about apples it just is.
Kelly

Yes, thank you for telling me wind doesn’t think about apples.
Now can we go back to my questions?

One thing I want you to answer is:

1, can you have a selection without intent?

This question requires a simple “yes” or “no” to answer.
Note that the above question doesn’t mention the word “choice” so don’t try and confuse the issue by saying something like “no, you cannot have a selection or choice without intent” because that is not what I asked so that doesn’t answer my question.
If you answer “no” to the above question (which is apparently what you seem to be saying) and you are so hang-up on the apples, perhaps I should avoid mentioning them. So how about an even simpler question:

2, If a gust selectively only moves the surface sand grains on a dune, does that selection involve intent?

Note that this question requires a simple “yes” or “no” answer.
And please don’t say something like: “I'll say the wind blows and that is what it does, it does not have a desire to move sand grains nor even thinks about sand grains, it just does it.” Because I already know this and I don’t have to keep repeatedly reminded that non-intelligent things are unintelligent thanks and this is irrelevant to the question.

If you answer “yes” then that means you ARE saying a gust can have intent!
If you answer “no” then that means you are saying that you can you have a selection without intent and thus natural selection does NOT imply intent ( contrary to what you said in your previous posts )
So which is it?

Originally posted by Andrew Hamilton
Yes, thank you for telling me wind doesn’t think about apples.
Now can we go back to my questions?

One thing I want you to answer is:

1, can you have a selection without intent?

This question requires a simple “yes” or “no” to answer.
Note that the above question doesn’t mention the word “choice” so don’t try and confuse the issue by sayi ...[text shortened]... ion does NOT imply intent ( contrary to what you said in your previous posts )
So which is it?

I'm saying NO CHOICES are being made by the wind, so it is not selecting
anything! I've said that several ways, you have my answer, accept it or reject it.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
I'm saying NO CHOICES are being made by the wind, so it is not selecting
anything! I've said that several ways, you have my answer, accept it or reject it.
Kelly

“…I'm saying NO CHOICES are being made by the wind, …”

Yes, that is what I said. And thank you for reminding us that wind doesn’t make choices 😛

“…so it is not SELECTING anything!...” ( my emphasis )

But it is selecting! It selecting the surface sand grains. Note that I didn’t say nor imply it CHOOSES the sand grains And it does NOT CHOOSE and so we agree on this so please stop pretending we don’t by saying it doesn’t choose!–I am only saying it SELECTS the sand grains, THAT IS ALL! –get it?

So you confuse the issue yet again by equating, in the above statement, “selection” with “choice” instead of, like a politician, giving a simple “yes” or “no” answer to a simple question that demands it.

All choices involve selections but that does NOT equate to all selections involving choices.
If it did, then using that logic: all birds being animals equates with all animals being birds –this is obviously false.

If this was not the case then if a gust selectively only moves the surface sand grains on a dune then that selection would involve intent because that selection would be a choice –this is obviously false.

I presume you will just trash this carefully laid-out question just like you have done with my other questions but:

If gust selectively only moves the surface sand grains on a dune then did that gust make a selection of those sand grains?

This question only requires a simple “yes” or “no” answer and if you give anything more or different then this is just trashing the question esp. if you use the word “choice” because the above question is NOT asking if the gust chooses 😛 I already know that the gust doesn't choose thank you very much.

I am only trying to relieve you of your misconceptions here 🙂

Originally posted by KellyJay
I'm saying NO CHOICES are being made by the wind, so it is not selecting
anything! I've said that several ways, you have my answer, accept it or reject it.
Kelly

So what word would you use to describe the action a natural process that results in sorting?

Originally posted by Andrew Hamilton
“…I'm saying NO CHOICES are being made by the wind, …”

Yes, that is what I said. And thank you for reminding us that wind doesn’t make choices 😛

“…so it is not SELECTING anything!...” ( my emphasis )

But it is selecting! It selecting the surface sand grains. Note that I didn’t say nor imply it CHOOSES the sand grains And it does NOT CHOOSE ...[text shortened]... choose thank you very much.

I am only trying to relieve you of your misconceptions here 🙂

KellyJay?

Originally posted by twhitehead
So what word would you use to describe the action a natural process that results in sorting?

Sifting to name a one.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
Sifting to name a one.
Kelly

What is wrong with “selecting”?

In everyday English that is what everybody else uses.

Originally posted by Andrew Hamilton
“…I'm saying NO CHOICES are being made by the wind, …”

Yes, that is what I said. And thank you for reminding us that wind doesn’t make choices 😛

“…so it is not SELECTING anything!...” ( my emphasis )

But it is selecting! It selecting the surface sand grains. Note that I didn’t say nor imply it CHOOSES the sand grains And it does NOT CHOOSE choose thank you very much.

I am only trying to relieve you of your misconceptions here 🙂

Kelly doesn’t admit it but he cannot answer these questions which is why he’s not even pretending to answer them and has gone silent on the issue.
I believe the fact he doesn’t answer shows he knows he is wrong which means he must have finally realised that to say natural selection implies making conscious “choices” with intent ( as he basically said and by confusing the words “selection” with “choice” ) is wrong.

Next time he says natural selection implies making “choices” just ask him:

“ If gust selectively only moves the surface sand grains on a dune then did that gust make a selection of those sand grains?
Note that the above question is NOT asking if the gust “chooses”; the gust does NOT “choose”.
The above question is asking if the gust “selects” and NOT “chooses”. “

-that apparently does the trick.

Originally posted by Andrew Hamilton
Kelly doesn’t admit it but he cannot answer these questions which is why he’s not even pretending to answer them and has gone silent on the issue.
I believe the fact he doesn’t answer shows he knows he is wrong which means he must have finally realised that to say natural selection implies making conscious “choices” with intent ( as he basically sai ...[text shortened]... stion is asking if the gust “selects” and NOT “chooses”. “

-that apparently does the trick.

The gust of wind simply moves the air and the effect of the wind will cause several
things to be affected, there are no choices, there is nothing making a selection
it simply is a cause and an effect.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
The gust of wind simply moves the air and the effect of the wind will cause several
things to be affected, there are no choices, there is nothing making a selection
it simply is a cause and an effect.
Kelly

“…there are no choices…”

That is what I said: yet again you pretend that I didn’t.
This doesn’t answer the question and you know it.
My question only can be answered by a simple “yes” or “no”.

“…there is nothing making a selection…”

Yet again you are trying in desperation to confuse “selection” with “choice” –an appalling tactic given that we have shown you the difference.
I have already proven to you by my questions that not all “selections” are “choices” because you don’t give a simple “yes” or “no” answer thus demonstrating you cannot give an answer.
You know you are wrong.
Obviously, a natural process can sort through something.

“…it simply is a cause and an effect…”

And cause and effects cannot involve sorting/selecting? 😛

Originally posted by KellyJay
Sifting to name a one.
Kelly

Then from now on, whenever someone says 'selection' just substitute it in your mind with 'sifting' and you will understand what they mean. So when you hear 'natural selection' simply think 'natural sifting'.
You are not the only person who feels the word 'selection' implies choice. I remember a thread on the word a while back and there were quite a number of people who were sure that it implied choice. I on the other hand do not think it does. But all that really matters is that we are able to communicate and understand what each other means when we use a word.
When a scientist uses the word selection in the context of 'natural selection' then they are not implying conscious choice. They mean the same as 'sifting' means to you.

Originally posted by twhitehead
Then from now on, whenever someone says 'selection' just substitute it in your mind with 'sifting' and you will understand what they mean. So when you hear 'natural selection' simply think 'natural sifting'.
You are not the only person who feels the word 'selection' implies choice. I remember a thread on the word a while back and there were quite a numbe ...[text shortened]... y are not implying conscious choice. They mean the same as 'sifting' means to you.

I understand what they mean no matter the word useage they pick it is
something that has been used for sometime now, as I was pointing out I think
it is a poor choice of words to describe the process.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
I understand what they mean no matter the word useage they pick it is
something that has been used for sometime now, as I was pointing out I think
it is a poor choice of words to describe the process.
Kelly

“…I understand what they mean no matter the word useage they pick it…”

In other words, you finally admit that, when people use the word “selection” in the context of natural selection, they don’t mean “choice” 🙂