1. Standard memberRJHinds
    The Near Genius
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    08 Mar '13 03:211 edit
    Discuss. 😏
  2. Joined
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    08 Mar '13 07:56
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    Discuss. 😏
    Why does a chess rating of 2200 exist when there is nothing?
  3. SubscriberFMF
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    08 Mar '13 08:32
    Originally posted by divegeester
    Why does a chess rating of 2200 exist when there is nothing?
    Because of the Analyze Board feature?
  4. Cape Town
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    08 Mar '13 08:41
    Some things are necessarily brute facts, ie there is no cause, and thus there cannot be an answer to a why question. The existence of something rather than nothing is the ultimate brute fact.
    Note that this has nothing whatsoever to do with religion. Even a religious person must admit that if God exists, then it is a brute fact that he exists.
  5. Standard memberKepler
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    08 Mar '13 09:11
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    Some things are necessarily brute facts, ie there is no cause, and thus there cannot be an answer to a why question. The existence of something rather than nothing is the ultimate brute fact.
    Note that this has nothing whatsoever to do with religion. Even a religious person must admit that if God exists, then it is a brute fact that he exists.
    If there was nothing we would not be here to observe the nothing. However, just because we are here to observe the something should not be taken as evidence of the specialness of us or the something. Sometimes things just are.
  6. Cape Town
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    08 Mar '13 11:11
    Here we go:
    YouTube

    As a bonus he mentions that people who believe in the Turin Shroud, will continue to believe in it regardless of what proof is presented.
  7. Standard membersonship
    the corrected one.
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    08 Mar '13 17:412 edits
    Some things are necessarily brute facts, ie there is no cause, and thus there cannot be an answer to a why question. The existence of something rather than nothing is the ultimate brute fact.
    Note that this has nothing whatsoever to do with religion. Even a religious person must admit that if God exists, then it is a brute fact that he exists.


    Why can it not also be a brute fact that everything that begins to exist has a cause for its existence ?

    Why can it not be a "brute fact" that there is an uncaused, unbegun Cause of all things which began to exist ?

    It seems that you cannot make the brute fact argument only favor one possibility. Why can it not be a brute fact that nothing exists for no reason except a final eternal and uncreated Source of everything else that exists ?

    Then we can still do Science up until we run into an ultimate brute fact.
    Ie. search for causes of many things which indeed are caused.
  8. Joined
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    08 Mar '13 17:551 edit
    Originally posted by sonship
    [quote] Some things are necessarily brute facts, ie there is no cause, and thus there cannot be an answer to a why question. The existence of something rather than nothing is the ultimate brute fact.
    Note that this has nothing whatsoever to do with religion. Even a religious person must admit that if God exists, then it is a brute fact that he exists. [/qu into an ultimate brute fact.
    Ie. search for causes of many things which indeed are caused.
  9. Joined
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    08 Mar '13 19:18
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    Discuss. 😏
    It is of course possible that nothing never was.
  10. Cape Town
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    08 Mar '13 20:28
    Originally posted by sonship
    Why can it not also be a brute fact that everything that [b]begins to exist has a cause for its existence ? [/b]
    I am sure it could. Of course there is no good reason to think it is, but nothing to my knowledge rules it out.

    Why can it not be a "brute fact" that there is an uncaused, unbegun Cause of all things which began to exist ?
    I am sure it could be.

    It seems that you cannot make the brute fact argument only favor one possibility.
    I never argued otherwise.

    Why can it not be a brute fact that nothing exists for no reason except a final eternal and uncreated Source of everything else that exists ?
    It could be.

    Then we can still do Science up until we run into an ultimate brute fact.
    Ie. search for causes of many things which indeed are caused.

    I don't see why not. I really don't see what you point is though.

    Of course all your possible brute facts are just that 'possible', but not particularly likely. If anything the evidence is very strongly against them. Quantum mechanics strongly suggests that causation is not a particularly hard and fast rule.
  11. Joined
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    08 Mar '13 20:55
    Originally posted by sonship
    [quote] Some things are necessarily brute facts, ie there is no cause, and thus there cannot be an answer to a why question. The existence of something rather than nothing is the ultimate brute fact.
    Note that this has nothing whatsoever to do with religion. Even a religious person must admit that if God exists, then it is a brute fact that he exists. [/qu ...[text shortened]... into an ultimate brute fact.
    Ie. search for causes of many things which indeed are caused.
    would i be correct in saying you believe the 'cause' of man is to be united with god in eternity?

    if so, is the cause we currently have the same cause that adam had before the fall?
  12. Standard membersonship
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    08 Mar '13 21:27
    I am sure it could. Of course there is no good reason to think it is, but nothing to my knowledge rules it out.


    I think there is no really good reason why it shouldn't be so.

    I think philosopher J P Moreland explains that very well.

    YouTube


    I am sure it could be.


    I think so also.


    Of course all your possible brute facts are just that 'possible', but not particularly likely. If anything the evidence is very strongly against them. Quantum mechanics strongly suggests that causation is not a particularly hard and fast rule.


    I don't think quantum mechanics is going to rescue us from assuming causation in the natural world. It may help us find that there are causes which are too tiny or too quick for us to be able to detect or measure with our present day tools.

    And if that is the case, we'll just have to accept that.
  13. Standard memberGrampy Bobby
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    08 Mar '13 22:17
    Originally posted by divegeester

    Why does a chess rating of 2200 exist when there is nothing?
    ... or any beneath the starting point of 1200?
  14. Standard memberGrampy Bobby
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    08 Mar '13 22:261 edit
    Originally posted by OdBod

    It is of course possible that nothing never was.
    Like your play of mind, even though the location of the sandbox is way out of town in the tulies. Seriously, you along with a few of your supporters, continue searching and sifting. You remind me of myself in more ways than I had previously realized. Stay with it; stay safe; be well. (gb)

    http://www.waywordradio.org/tulies_1/
  15. Standard membersonship
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    08 Mar '13 22:431 edit
    would i be correct in saying you believe the 'cause' of man is to be united with god in eternity?


    I would say that that union of the human and the divine is why God created man.

    Jesus Christ - the Firstborn Son of God.


    if so, is the cause we currently have the same cause that adam had before the fall?


    Yes.

    This mingling is from out of man's voluntary choice. This is why Adam was placed before the tree of life. He had the free choice to partake of this divine and eternal life which is God Himself.
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