1. Joined
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    16 Jan '12 12:56
    Many love God because God is like a Rock - so dependable, so trustworthy.

    Some love God because He is so beautiful. He who created all beauty and is the source of such is Himself the Beautiful One.

    There are so many reasons why we can love God. We can love God for Himself, not for what He does for us, but just because He is altogether Wonderful in Himself.

    Some love God for exceedingly practical reasons. The Psalmist said that he loved God because God heard his voice. When he cried out to God in his distress he discovered that God responded to his cry. God hears our voice.

    That is a reason to love God.

    I also love God because in the chaos of human life there is one Beacon of Light that keeps me sane - the life of Jesus Christ. He is the light of the world.
  2. Joined
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    16 Jan '12 13:44
    Originally posted by jaywill
    Many love God because God is like a Rock - so dependable, so trustworthy.

    Some love God because He is so beautiful. He who created all beauty and is the source of such is Himself the Beautiful One.

    There are so many reasons why we can love God. We can love God for Himself, not for what He does for us, but just because He is altogether Wonderfu ...[text shortened]... one Beacon of Light that keeps me sane - the life of Jesus Christ. He is the light of the world.
    Same goes for my boss.

    She is so dependable, so trustworthy, so beautiful. I love her for what she is, so wonderful. She is also very practical, and she listens to us employees, she always hear our voices.

    There are many other reasons to love her. She makes our lives better with every paycheck, so I can keep me sane and healthy.

    She is really a light in our lives!
  3. Cape Town
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    16 Jan '12 13:48
    Originally posted by jaywill
    Many love God because God is like a Rock - so dependable, so trustworthy.
    In what ways? What have you depended on him to do that he has done? What have you trusted him with where he has not betrayed that trust?
    How does he differ from a piece of rock in that respect?
  4. Joined
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    16 Jan '12 14:401 edit
    Originally posted by FabianFnas
    Same goes for my boss.

    She is so dependable, so trustworthy, so beautiful. I love her for what she is, so wonderful. She is also very practical, and she listens to us employees, she always hear our voices.

    There are many other reasons to love her. She makes our lives better with every paycheck, so I can keep me sane and healthy.

    She is really a light in our lives!
    Nothing is wrong with that.

    Didn't say because God is dependable and beautiful no one else is.
  5. Joined
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    16 Jan '12 16:42
    Originally posted by jaywill
    Nothing is wrong with that.

    Didn't say because God is dependable and beautiful no one else is.
    My boss is more beautiful than your god. She has no beard.
  6. Joined
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    16 Jan '12 17:561 edit
    Originally posted by jaywill
    Many love God because God is like a Rock - so dependable, so trustworthy.

    Some love God because He is so beautiful. He who created all beauty and is the source of such is Himself the Beautiful One.

    There are so many reasons why we can love God. We can love God for Himself, not for what He does for us, but just because He is altogether Wonderfu ...[text shortened]... one Beacon of Light that keeps me sane - the life of Jesus Christ. He is the light of the world.
    I think theists who love God and teach love of God have a healthier God-concept than theists who fear God and teach fear of God.
  7. Joined
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    16 Jan '12 18:20
    Originally posted by JS357
    I think theists who love God and teach love of God have a healthier God-concept than theists who fear God and teach fear of God.
    I like the new word "holistic". I get the impression that it means a kind well rounded and all-inclusive appreciation.

    There are many aspects to why people are drawn to God. The fear of the Lord is just one. But it is clean.

    The fear of the God has kept me from doing some very foolish and harmful things. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.

    The older Christians use to say "The only way to get the fear of man out of you is to get the fear of God in you."

    I have seen truth to that. So a so called "holistic" appreciation of God, would be all- inclusive, all-encompassing. It would include also a reverence for God - a fear of God.

    Then again we have John tell us "Perfect love casts out fear". So I guess I am still in the process of being perfected.
  8. Joined
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    16 Jan '12 18:232 edits
    Originally posted by JS357
    I think theists who love God and teach love of God have a healthier God-concept than theists who fear God and teach fear of God.
    I think theists who love God and teach love of God have a healthier God-concept than theists who fear God and teach fear of God.


    Jesus Christ, the Son of God, included the fear of God in His teaching.
    If Jesus taught it, then it must be good to learn.
  9. Joined
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    16 Jan '12 18:271 edit
    Originally posted by FabianFnas
    My boss is more beautiful than your god. She has no beard.
    My boss is more beautiful than your god. She has no beard.


    No. In spite of the your try at humor, I don't believe it proves that you have a healthy libido. Maybe, sexually and emotionally you're a loser.
  10. Joined
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    16 Jan '12 18:28
    Originally posted by jaywill
    I like the new word "holistic". I get the impression that it means a kind well rounded and all-inclusive appreciation.

    There are many aspects to why people are drawn to God. The fear of the Lord is just one. But it is clean.

    The fear of the God has kept me from doing some very foolish and harmful things. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisd ...[text shortened]... fect love casts out fear"
    . So I guess I am still in the process of being perfected.[/b]
    The older Christians use to say "The only way to get the fear of man out of you is to get the fear of God in you."

    That is complete nonsense. How about actually addressing the problem in some genuine way, rather than just replacing it with new ones. This seems somewhat characteristic of Christians, old or new: they tend to suggest that the only way to do this or that is to submit to their confused, dubious metaphysics; and they tend to offer non-solutions to real problems.
  11. Joined
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    16 Jan '12 18:393 edits
    Originally posted by LemonJello
    [b]The older Christians use to say "The only way to get the fear of man out of you is to get the fear of God in you."

    That is complete nonsense. How about actually addressing the problem in some genuine way, rather than just replacing it with new ones. This seems somewhat characteristic of Christians, old or new: they tend to suggest that [i]the ...[text shortened]... to their confused, dubious metaphysics; and they tend to offer non-solutions to real problems.[/b]
    That is complete nonsense. How about actually addressing the problem in some genuine way, rather than just replacing it with new ones. This seems somewhat characteristic of Christians, old or new: they tend to suggest that the only way to do this or that is to submit to their confused, dubious metaphysics; and they tend to offer non-solutions to real problems.


    [/i]
    You don't know what you're talking about. It is not nonsense at all.

    The Christian martyrs that faced fire, wild beasts, torture and being torn apart by the emporer's animals, had something within that kept them singing, praising, and confessing Jesus. They may have re-called the words of Jesus -

    "And do not fear those who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul; nut rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna. " (Matt. 10:28)

    Have you ever read anything out of Foxe's Book of Martyrs ? .

    I believe that so many of these faithful Christians witnesses had gotten the fear of man out of them. They feared God and falling short of being faithful to Christ. And Christ empowered them. Christ upheld them. Christ energized them from within. Christ made them stand by His powerful grace.

    I certainly love the Lord Jesus and also fear God. The fear of God is clean. When I know that I can fool this and that person, the certainty that GOD CANNOT be fooled keeps me in check.

    You don't understand that, do you ?

    When I know that outwardly I could get away, seemingly, with this or that before man, my God cannot be so fooled. And my heart is as an open book before Him in the innermost motive and imagination of the heart, such a sober realization keeps me from many foolish acts.

    So I love Him.

    The fear of the Lord is the hatred of evil.
  12. Cape Town
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    16 Jan '12 19:01
    Originally posted by jaywill
    The fear of the God has kept me from doing some very foolish and harmful things.
    Why are you pleased about that? You don't recognise any rational reason for not doing them, you had to rely on your fear of God. So what is there to be thankful for? The fear of God stopped you from doing something you desired to do, and presumably still think was the best course of action (for whatever reasons).
    Or were you irrational at the time, and have thought better of it since?
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    16 Jan '12 19:19
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    Why are you pleased about that? You don't recognise any rational reason for not doing them, you had to rely on your fear of God. So what is there to be thankful for? The fear of God stopped you from doing something you desired to do, and presumably still think was the best course of action (for whatever reasons).
    Or were you irrational at the time, and have thought better of it since?
    On the negative side the fear of God has often kept me and preserved me.
    On the positive side the fear of God has empowered me and enabled me.

    There is also the fear of simply missing the enjoyment of living God.
    The fear of the emptiness of life without God which I tasted and have no desire to return to.

    The fear of the vanity of not knowing where one comes from or where one is going or why one is alive.

    I would not want to trade places with the athiest for a millisecond. It is terrible to be in such darkness.

    So the "fear of God" is also the fear of the vacuum of emptiness without the "heavenly Father". Once having tasted it, I would never want to return to it.
  14. Joined
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    16 Jan '12 19:391 edit
    Originally posted by jaywill
    I think theists who love God and teach love of God have a healthier God-concept than theists who fear God and teach fear of God.


    Jesus Christ, the Son of God, [b]included
    the fear of God in His teaching.
    If Jesus taught it, then it must be good to learn.[/b]
    New Testament references to fear of God, from:

    http://www.feargod.net/verses.php

    >>With my comments indented like this.

    Luke is especially instructive.

    Luke

    1:50 His mercy extends to those who fear him, from generation to generation.

    >>Does not teach to fear, nor does it deny mercy (if it is needed) to those who do not fear. It assuages fear.

    8:24-25 He got up and rebuked the wind and the raging waters; the storm subsided, and all was calm. "Where is your faith?" he asked his disciples. In fear and amazement they asked one another, "Who is this? He commands even the winds and the water, and they obey him."

    >>Does not teach to fear. Suggests that fear is a sign of LACKING faith.

    12:4-5 "I tell you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more. But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him.

    >>Teaches only the sinner to fear, OR teaches God is arbitrary. and at 7, he says, "Don’t be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows."

    23:40 But the other criminal rebuked him. "Don't you fear God," he said, "since you are under the same sentence?

    >> One criminal speaking to another. But at verse 23, Jesus reassures him, as if to diminish any fear.

    Acts

    7:30-32 "After forty years had passed, an angel appeared to Moses in the flames of a burning bush in the desert near Mount Sinai. When he saw this, he was amazed at the sight. As he went over to look more closely, he heard the Lord's voice: 'I am the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.' Moses trembled with fear and did not dare to look.

    >>Does not teach to fear; only describes it as occurring.

    9:31Then the church throughout Judea, Galilee and Samaria enjoyed a time of peace. It was strengthened; and encouraged by the Holy Spirit, it grew in numbers, living in the fear of the Lord.

    >>Does not teach to fear; only describes it as occurring.

    10:34-35 Then Peter began to speak: "I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism but accepts men from every nation who fear him and do what is right.
    2Corinthians

    >> Can be interpreted as "Even though they fear him, if they do right, he will accept them. As a way to assuage fear as at Luke 23:40ff

    5:11 Since, then, we know what it is to fear the Lord, we try to persuade men. What we are is plain to God, and I hope it is also plain to your conscience.

    >>Does not teach to fear; only describes it as occurring.

    Ephesians

    6:5 Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ.

    >>The structure is "Obey..as you would obey" not "Fear..as you would fear."

    Phillipians

    2:12-13 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed--not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence--continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.

    >>Paul takes his converts where he finds them, in fear of their God. He allows as how this attitude may persist.

    Hebrews

    11:7 By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family.

    >>Does not teach to fear; only describes it as occurring.

    12:21 The sight was so terrifying that Moses said, "I am trembling with fear."

    >>Does not teach to fear; only describes it as occurring.

    1Peter

    1:17 Since you call on a Father who judges each man's work impartially, live your lives as strangers here in reverent fear.

    >>This comes closest to teaching fear. But Paul is not Jesus, IMO.

    2:17 Show proper respect to everyone: Love the brotherhood of believers, fear God, honor the king.

    >>Same as above.

    3:14 But even if you should suffer for what is right, you are blessed. "Do not fear what they fear; do not be frightened."

    >>Hmmm. Seems to teach not to fear. But I have discounted Paul.

    Revelation

    14:6-7 Then I saw another angel flying in midair, and he had the eternal gospel to proclaim to those who live on the earth--to every nation, tribe, language and people. He said in a loud voice, "Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come. Worship him who made the heavens, the earth, the sea and the springs of water."

    >>This is one angel's opinion in your favor.

    15:4 Who will not fear you, O Lord, and bring glory to your name? For you alone are holy. All nations will come and worship before you, for your righteous acts have been revealed."

    >>Does not teach fear, only predicts it.

    19:5 Then a voice came from the throne, saying: "Praise our God, all you his servants, you who fear him, both small and great!"

    >>This is said because the ones who don't fear him, don't need to be told to praise him.🙂
  15. Joined
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    16 Jan '12 20:101 edit
    Originally posted by JS357
    New Testament references to fear of God, from:

    http://www.feargod.net/verses.php

    >>With my comments indented like this.

    Luke is especially instructive.

    Luke

    1:50 His mercy extends to those who fear him, from generation to generation.

    >>Does not teach to fear, nor does it deny mercy (if it is needed) to those who do not fear. It assuages fear. nes who don't fear him, don't need to be told to praise him.🙂
    12:4-5 "I tell you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more. But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him.

    >>Teaches only the sinner to fear, OR teaches God is arbitrary. and at 7, he says, "Don’t be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows."


    You have quite a lot written there, all of which I did not read yet.

    But let me take this one portion of Luke 12:4-5.

    First thing I would note is that I did not quote to you Luke 12:4-5 but Matthew 10:28.

    So I will expound first my reference to Matthew 10:28 : The context is His speaking to His followers. The context is His speaking to the disciples. And His teaching is meant to equip the disciples with suitable endurance for upcoming persecution.

    The question of salvation should be solved for disciples.

    The book of Matthew though is more concerned with reward and punishment, discipline and chastizement, responsibility and compensation dispensed in the age immediately following the second coming of Christ. That is the millennial kingdom.

    God's hands are not tied so that He cannot further discipline those who are saved eternally. This is a big subject.

    But the bottom line for this post is that the teaching of Matthew 10:28 is aimed at believers in Christ for whom the problem of eternal redemption has been solved in the affirmative.

    A parallel passage might be that letter of Christ's written to the church in Smryna in Revelation 2:8-11 . This also involves the glorified Christ speaking to Christians (church is emphatically made up of Christians).

    "I know your tribulation and povery (but you are rich) ... Do not fear the things that you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to cast some of you into prison that you may be tried, and you will have tribulation for ten days.

    Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life.

    He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcxomes shall by no means be hurt of the second death."


    1.) The letter is emphatically addressed to Christians.

    2.) The suffering Christians are told to be faithful unto death under the coming suffering.

    3.) The reward is spoken of in terms of something negative being held back -

    "He who overcomes shall by no means be hurt of the second death"

    This aspect of reward is POSITIVE - "Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life."

    This aspect of reward is spoken in terms of withholding something negative -

    "He who overcomes shall by no means be hurt of the second death."

    I use to think that Christ was too hard on this church. If they suffer so intensly it should not be held for to them that they might be hurt by the second death. Then one day I realized that the Lord can speak that way because of His powerful grace.

    He does not expect them to overcome by their own power. He KNOWS that they can overcome because of His empowering GRACE. His grace is sufficient to see them through the worst form of persecution.

    I think both Matthew 10:28 and Revelation 2:8-11 regard particular circumstances reserved for some whom the Lord will reserve to pass through such. And in each case a divine fear of something worse motivates the disciples to endure.

    These particulars may not be the common portion of all disciples. But in the history of the church from the 1rst century until the second coming of Christ, SOME brothers and sisters will pass through such a test.

    PS "hurt of the second death" does not mean perish forever. But it implies the possibility that some defeated Christians might BE hurt of the second death temporarily.
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