06 Feb 09
I ask myself why does the Christian doctrine aggravate me so much, and this is what I came up with. Telling someone that they will spend eternity in Hell, because they don't see it like you see it, is beyond rude. It's savage ,and lacking in any type of kindness or understanding of humanity. It's cave man thought.
The smugness that most Christians have about going to Heaven while you burn like a piece of bacon in Hell can rub one the wrong way also. They will up there in Heaven sipping the Lords iced tea looking down on the poor heathen boiling in the Lake of Fire. That can aggravate me also.
The whole cock sure attitude is aggravating. It's read it in the Bible and shut up heathen. God said it, I believe it ,and that settles it.
06 Feb 09
Originally posted by buckkyrelax my friend, there is no such thing as hell and i can prove it from the bible.
I ask myself why does the Christian doctrine aggravate me so much, and this is what I came up with. Telling someone that they will spend eternity in Hell, because they don't see it like you see it, is beyond rude. It's savage ,and lacking in any type of kindness or understanding of humanity. It's cave man thought.
The smugness that most Christians have ab ...[text shortened]... 's read it in the Bible and shut up heathen. God said it, I believe it ,and that settles it.
06 Feb 09
Originally posted by buckkyThis is just a scare tactic to win converts. It is fairly easy to show the logical drawbacks of this sort of belief.
I ask myself why does the Christian doctrine aggravate me so much, and this is what I came up with. Telling someone that they will spend eternity in Hell, because they don't see it like you see it, is beyond rude. It's savage ,and lacking in any type of kindness or understanding of humanity. It's cave man thought.
The smugness that most Christians have ab ...[text shortened]... 's read it in the Bible and shut up heathen. God said it, I believe it ,and that settles it.
I say, have some fun with the cavemen. If they really want to force the subject, then make them defend the Problem of Evil. Or figure out what happens to infants killed before they can know Jesus. Or defend the concept of a 'loving' god tormenting people in hell for kicks, etc. etc.
06 Feb 09
Originally posted by buckkyyou are starting to sound like someone with a problem. i don't know why yet. were you traumatized by a priest in you childhood? did you pray for a new bike and didn't get it? did you promised god you will clean the public toilets for a year if he saves 14 year old Skippy the dog and not only did he killed skippy, but he did it after you cleaned the toilets?
I ask myself why does the Christian doctrine aggravate me so much, and this is what I came up with. Telling someone that they will spend eternity in Hell, because they don't see it like you see it, is beyond rude. It's savage ,and lacking in any type of kindness or understanding of humanity. It's cave man thought.
The smugness that most Christians have ab ...[text shortened]... 's read it in the Bible and shut up heathen. God said it, I believe it ,and that settles it.
you are starting to sound a bit like the crazy angry atheist.
i was nice in the other thread. i yelled at that freakshow for sending atheists to hell regardless of what they did in life. but starting another thread on the same subject sounds a bit like you have issues.
did you try and see if there are good things in christianity? or religions in general? or you think only christianity is evil?
06 Feb 09
Originally posted by buckkyAnyone with any belief system can be a pain in the you know what. I say it has less to do with what we believe than it does how we present such beliefs. For example, I have encountered many, many atheists who are not only cocky, but obnoxious as well. I think it all boiis down to pride which can flourish from any belief system.
I ask myself why does the Christian doctrine aggravate me so much, and this is what I came up with. Telling someone that they will spend eternity in Hell, because they don't see it like you see it, is beyond rude. It's savage ,and lacking in any type of kindness or understanding of humanity. It's cave man thought.
The smugness that most Christians have ab ...[text shortened]... 's read it in the Bible and shut up heathen. God said it, I believe it ,and that settles it.
06 Feb 09
1 edit
Originally posted by whodey….I think it all boils down to PRIDE which can flourish from any belief system.
Anyone with any belief system can be a pain in the you know what. I say it has less to do with what we believe than it does how we present such beliefs. For example, I have encountered many, many atheists who are not only cocky, but obnoxious as well. I think it all boiis down to pride which can flourish from any belief system.
..…
Do you think that atheists are generally “proud” of the fact that they don’t believe there is a god?
That makes about as much sense as saying I am “proud” of the fact that I don’t believe there is a Santa 😛
But, on the other hand, I can understand the pride which can flourish, at least in the minds of the arrogant, from any belief system that says that humans are so special as to be worthy of the attention of a deity.
06 Feb 09
1 edit
Originally posted by DoctorScribblesok Doc, here it is, i apologize for the lengthy nature of the thing, but if exercise patience and read the text, see what you think
I would be interested in reading such a proof.
first of all we establish the condition of the dead
Ecclesiastes 9:5 states
For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all, neither do they anymore have wages, because the remembrance of them has been forgotten.
so from this reference we can establish that the dead are in a state of unconsciousness, is it not so? therefore if they are unconscious, they cannot feel any pain, therefore if they do not feel pain, they cannot be tortured.
the words that have been translated hell in scripture come from the Hebrew words Gehenna the valley of Hinnom and Sheol, and the Greek word Hades, the common grave of mankind.
the valley of Hinnom, or Gehenna is interesting for it was once used for offering up people in ritual sacrifice, note this passage.
Twenty years old was Ahaz when he began to reign, and for sixteen years he reigned in Jerusalem, and he did not do what was right in Jehovah’s eyes like David his forefather. But he walked in the ways of the kings of Israel, and even molten statues he made of the Baals. 3And he himself made sacrificial smoke in the valley of the son of Hinnom and proceeded to burn up his sons in the fire, according to the detestable things of the nations that Jehovah had driven out from before the sons of Israel. And he regularly sacrificed and made sacrificial smoke on the high places and upon the hills and under every sort of luxuriant tree. 2 Chronicles 28:1-4
this practice was stamped out by Josiah in his religious reforms and the place became a desolate waste
And he made unfit for worship Topheth, which is in the valley of the sons of Hinnom, that no one might make his son or his daughter pass through the fire to Molech. 2 Kings 23:10
the important thing to note is how God felt about this, thus we read, at Jeremiah 7:21, 'And they have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, in order to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, a thing that I had not commanded and that had not come up into my heart.’, so this roasting people in a fire had never entered into Gods figurative heart, never!
in the time of Christ this place Gehenna became a garbage dump for animal carcasses and stuff, like people who were denied a proper burial, convicted criminals etc, fires were kept burning there by adding brimstone (sulfur). thus it became a symbol of destruction, not torment!
now these other words translated hell, Sheol and Hades
Websters Dictionary says that the English word “hell” is equal to the Hebrew word Sheol and the Greek word Hades. The English translators of the Authorized Version, or King James Version, translated Sheol 31 times as “hell,” 31 times as “grave,” and 3 times as “pit.” The Catholic Douay Version translated Sheol 64 times as “hell.” In the Christian Greek Scriptures (commonly called the “New Testament&rdquo😉, the King James Version translated Hades as “hell” each of the 10 times it occurs.—Matthew 11:23; 16:18; Luke 10:15; 16:23; Acts 2:27, 31; Revelation 1:18; 6:8; 20:13, 14.
The question is: What kind of place is Sheol, or Hades? The fact that the King James Version translates the one Hebrew word Sheol three different ways shows that hell, grave and pit mean one and the same thing. And if hell means the common grave of mankind, it could not at the same time mean a place of fiery torture. Well, then, do Sheol and Hades mean the grave, or do they mean a place of torture?
Before answering this question, let us make clear that the Hebrew word Sheol and the Greek word Hades mean the same thing. This is shown by looking at Psalm 16:10 in the Hebrew Scriptures and Acts 2:31 in the Greek Scriptures,
For you will not leave my soul in Sheol.
You will not allow your loyal one to see the pit. - psalm 61:10
he saw beforehand and spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that neither was he forsaken in Hades nor did his flesh see corruption. - Acts 2:31
Notice that in quoting from Psalm 16:10 where Sheol occurs, Acts 2:31 uses Hades. Notice, too, that Jesus Christ was in Hades, or hell. Are we to believe that God tormented Christ in a hell of fire? Not a chance! Jesus was simply in his grave.
thus we must conclude that the words translated as hell do not mean a literal place of torment, but simply the common grave of mankind, where they are used, as in the case of Gehenna, it figuratively means destruction from before the face of God, not torment, thus when we read in the book of revelation, about the lake of fire , it simply means, the second death, or death with no hope of a Resurrection, in other words, destruction.
No good Doctor, you can rest assured that no one is, or going to be tormented in a place of torture, not now, not ever.
06 Feb 09
5 edits
Originally posted by robbie carrobieCatholics believe that hell is a real place, as indicated in their catechism, which cites the indicated Bible verses:
ok Doc, here it is, i apologize for the lengthy nature of the thing, but if exercise patience and read the text, see what you think
first of all we establish the condition of the dead
Ecclesiastes 9:5 states
For the living are conscious that they will die; [b]but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all, neither do they anym rest assured that no one is, or going to be tormented in a place of torture, not now, not ever.[/b]
Jesus often speaks of Gehenna, of the unquenchable fire reserved for those who to the end of their lives refuse to believe and be converted, where both body and soul can be lost. Mt 5:22, 29; 10:28; 13:42, 50; Mk 9:43-48 Jesus solemnly proclaims that he “will send his angels, and they will gather ... all evil doers, and throw them into the furnace of fire,” Mt 13:41 and that he will pronounce the condemnation: “Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire!” Mt 25:41
The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, eternal fire.
(http://www.secondexodus.com/html/catholicdefinitions/hell.htm)
Is it true or false that Jesus will send angels to cast evil doers into a furnace of eternal fire?
If it is false, why would Jesus solemnly proclaim that it is true?
06 Feb 09
1 edit
Originally posted by DoctorScribblesyes Doc it is true, but it is simply a fitting symbol of destruction, not of torment!
Catholics believe that hell is a real place, as indicated in their catechism, which cites the indicated Bible verses:
[quote]Jesus often speaks of Gehenna, of the unquenchable fire reserved for those who to the end of their lives refuse to believe and be converted, where both body and soul can be lost. Mt 5:22, 29; 10:28; 13:42, 50; Mk 9:43-48 Jes ...[text shortened]... a furnace of eternal fire?
If it is false, why would Jesus solemnly proclaim that it is true?
Consider these cross references
(Matthew 13:30) Let both grow together until the harvest; and in the harvest season I will tell the reapers, First collect the weeds and bind them in bundles to burn them up, then go to gathering the wheat into my storehouse.’”
notice that the weeds are to be burned up, or simply destroyed, as in the same context as the reference you gave.
(Revelation 21:8) But as for the cowards and those without faith and those who are disgusting in their filth and murderers and fornicators and those practicing spiritism and idolaters and all the liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulphur. This means the second death.”
Hear we can discern that fire again is simply used as a symbol of destruction, notice the meaning of the lake of fire, the second death, or death without the hope of a resurrection, destruction, not torment.
You are right Doc, not only Catholics believe this, but some protestants, Hindus, Muslims as well! it starts from the idea that humans have an immortal soul, something that transcends death and is able therefore to be punished, this of course is not true, for the Bible word for soul simply means a living breathing being, its another case of mistranslation, note Ezekiel 18:3, ' The soul that is sinning—it itself will die.', showing the mortality of the 'soul ' or person.
06 Feb 09
Originally posted by robbie carrobieYou don't think it would be tormenting to be thrown into a furnace of fire?
yes Doc it is true, but it is simply a fitting symbol of destruction, not of torment!
The cited verse indicates that this a punishment reserved only for cursed evil doers, so it can't be denoting simply the fact of death, since all people, not only cursed evil doers, die.
06 Feb 09
Originally posted by ZahlanziI do have a problem. I believe in God, because that's the only thing that makes sense to me, and because of numerous experinces. The Christian thing denies that any other belief or thought on the subjct is false. Thats the problem.
you are starting to sound like someone with a problem. i don't know why yet. were you traumatized by a priest in you childhood? did you pray for a new bike and didn't get it? did you promised god you will clean the public toilets for a year if he saves 14 year old Skippy the dog and not only did he killed skippy, but he did it after you cleaned the toilets ...[text shortened]... good things in christianity? or religions in general? or you think only christianity is evil?
06 Feb 09
4 edits
Originally posted by DoctorScribblesyes Doc, it would be tormenting, but it would also be transient, once we are dead, we would feel nothing, be in a state of subconsciousness awaiting the resurrection, provided that we did not sin against the Holy spirit, which as far as i am aware, is the only unforgivable sin that may put one in a position, never to receive the hope of a resurrection. I think this later part seems to take into account your query regarding the death of all people, yes we die, but in such a state we are awaiting the resurrection. How can we be resurrected if we never died, if some part of us lives on, it simply does not make sense!
You don't think it would be tormenting to be thrown into a furnace of fire?
The cited verse indicates that this a punishment reserved only for cursed evil doers, so it can't be denoting simply the fact of death, since all people, not only cursed evil doers, die.