Why organised religion?

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
Science is man-made. Get it off that pedestal.

I wasn't putting it on a pedestal, but what has it being man-made got to do with anything?

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
Science is man-made. Get it off that pedestal.

So is God. 😛

Originally posted by googlefudge
Well so long as its clear that you're the intellectual wimp who can't substantiate his
positions but restates them ad nauseum despite them being not only rebutted but
refuted, and runs away from any actual debate...

Then sure, I wont respond to your posts.... Ill just refute all your arguments for
everyone else's benefit, and otherwise ignore you utterly.

Incidentally your picture should be a big yellow chicken... just sayin...

😴

Originally posted by rwingett
Apart from the physical laws of the universe, science advocates very little. But a rampant, atomized, materialistic consumerism has been its inevitable (if unintended) side effect. It is no coincidence that modern science and capitalism co-evolved side by side.

This seems to sum up what could be considered "The Problem" (that most people have a very hard time putting into words) that grips the world today.

I believe that both the Tea Party and the Occupy Wall Street movements reflect this. Despite coming from opposite sides of the political spectrum, both movements seem to be saying that "materialistic consumerism" is swallowing us, and that there aren't any obvious answers.

I suspect the Tea Party members know deep inside that the answer really isn't cutting government spending - and I suspect the Occupiers know deep inside that the answer really isn't taxing the rich and passing some "jobs bill". Something much deeper is wrong.

rwingett... please tell me I didn't see that avatar.

😴

Originally posted by Melanerpes
This seems to sum up what could be considered "The Problem" (that most people have a very hard time putting into words) that grips the world today.

I believe that both the Tea Party and the Occupy Wall Street movements reflect this. Despite coming from opposite sides of the political spectrum, both movements seem to be saying that "materialistic consum ...[text shortened]... deep inside that the answer really isn't taxing the rich and passing some "jobs bill".

If by the problem you mean the way our economies are run, and the economic idea of
having perpetual exponential growth as an essential element of success, then I would
agree.

However rwingett has an unfounded belief that it is sciences fault.

Which is bonkers, because apart from anything else science tells us that this is nuts,
no scientist would suggest that permanent exponential growth is possible, let alone desirable.

We have problems of economics and politics, some more than most, the US political system
for example is so useless corrupt now it is beyond a joke. Which just makes the situation
worse. However pendulums swing both ways, it has been swinging right for a long long time
now, a swing to the left is overdue and probably inevitable.

The biggest problem is as always not the political system, or the politicians, it's the people.

It's always the people, the 99%, or even the 99.9% of the people can do, and get, whatever
they want if they were determined enough to get it.
There is power in sheer numbers, especially in democracies (of whatever sort), it doesn't matter
how much anyone gets to spend on a politician, if all the people on election day go out and vote
for someone else.

People need to get involved with their democracy, they need to get educated about the issues,
debate and discuss them, and vote for people because they have good ideas, not because they
belong to the party you always vote for.

And yes, religion needs to be divorced from the decision making process, if you want good governance
for everyone it has to be secular. And not spend time it should be using to solve the issues of the day
to ramming one sect's religious values down the throats of everyone else.

Originally posted by googlefudge
However pendulums swing both ways, it has been swinging right for a long long time now, a swing to the left is overdue and probably inevitable.

LOL, the pendulum (thanks George) took a wild, desparate, enormous swing left about 3 years ago. And the American public has been running scared and pushing Republicans into office ever since.

The people can be gullible at times but they eventually get it. Some of us are old enough to remember the Carter debacle. We saw this coming. Others insisted on learning things the hard way.

The sad thing is, in a 2 party system, many times you have to choose between 2 evils. We had to choose between a sensible, yet hawkish man in John McCain, or... a radical left winger Socialist who promised to get our troops home. The majority chose option B and I can't say I blame them.

*edit*
email received a few hours ago was apparently bogus, recycled propaganda.

Originally posted by sumydid
LOL, the pendulum (thanks George) took a wild, desparate, enormous swing left about 3 years ago. And the American public has been running scared and pushing Republicans into office ever since.

The people can be gullible at times but they eventually get it. Some of us are old enough to remember the Carter debacle. We saw this coming. Others insisted on ...[text shortened]... lame them.

*edit*
email received a few hours ago was apparently bogus, recycled propaganda.

Oh good grief, if you think Obama is a radical socialist you really need to get out more.

In most of the western world he's barely even centrist, and to the right of centre at that.


This is what I am talking about, the right has distorted the debate for so long that anything
not far right is labelled radical socialism.

What happened in 2008 was a slight slowdown in the rightward swing.

Originally posted by googlefudge
If by the problem you mean the way our economies are run, and the economic idea of
having perpetual exponential growth as an essential element of success, then I would
agree.

However rwingett has an unfounded belief that it is sciences fault.

Which is bonkers, because apart from anything else science tells us that this is nuts,
no scientist w issues of the day
to ramming one sect's religious values down the throats of everyone else.

I don't think Rwingett is blaming science.

Science has achieved wondrous technologies and will continue to do so. But we humans still have to make the decisions about what we do with these technologies. Science can't make those decisions for us.

But The Problem is more than just finding a way to make the economy "grow faster". Even before the crash, there was a certain angst in the air. And it seems to be much more than merely swinging the political pendulum a different way. That's why, once you get past the slogans and bravado, you find that the politicians in both parties are offering little more than zilch, nada, and nil.

At the end of the day, the answer is not "government" -- it's not about making it bigger and its not about making it smaller. Yes, there are major governmental issues that do need to be addressed, but none of this will really deal with The Problem.

Originally posted by googlefudge
Oh good grief, if you think Obama is a radical socialist you really need to get out more.

In most of the western world he's barely even centrist, and to the right of centre at that.


This is what I am talking about, the right has distorted the debate for so long that anything
not far right is labelled radical socialism.

What happened in 2008 was a slight slowdown in the rightward swing.

Well, I'm sorry but the facts just don't support you.

It may be Conservatives who are telling the story--it certainly wouldn't be the Liberals shouting it from the rooftops, would it. But that doesn't mean it's false propaganda.

All you have to do is look at what Obummer has done, sought to do, and seeks to do. If you think that is Centrist then you have some learning to do. And there's nothing to be ashamed of in that, other than the way you treat those with whom you disagree.

Originally posted by Melanerpes
I don't think Rwingett is blaming science.

Science has achieved wondrous technologies and will continue to do so. But we humans still have to make the decisions about what we do with these technologies. Science can't make those decisions for us.

But The Problem is more than just finding a way to make the economy "grow faster". Even before the cras ...[text shortened]... issues that do need to be addressed, but none of this will really deal with The Problem.

Heh, then you need to read more of Rwingett's posts.


I think if we are going to discuss what the 'answer' to the 'problem' is, we would need to
agree on and define exactly what the 'problem' is, which is likely in of itself to suggest
where you go to solve it.

A well formulated question often contains at least clues as to it's answer.

None of the problems we face at the moment are insoluble, the problem is getting the
necessary will behind viable solutions and enacting them.

Originally posted by sumydid
Well, I'm sorry but the facts just don't support you.

It may be Conservatives who are telling the story--it certainly wouldn't be the Liberals shouting it from the rooftops, would it. But that doesn't mean it's false propaganda.

All you have to do is look at what Obummer has done, sought to do, and seeks to do. If you think that is Centrist then you thing to be ashamed of in that, other than the way you treat those with whom you disagree.

I have actually looked at what Obama has done and is trying to do.

And I assure you, as [I am] what would be described as a liberal and progressive,
Obama has not done anything radically leftist. He has been right of centre
all the way.

It is only the fact that the republicans have gone so far over to the right they
are no longer in the same time zone as the centre, that Obama looks remotely
leftist.

Part of the way you tell that is with the dissatisfaction of all the people on the left.

So actually the facts do support me.

But I would be fascinated to know what you think he has done that is radically liberal.

Originally posted by Agerg
It pains me to try and wrap my head round the idea that grown adults these days, after "witnessing some personal, yet seemingly extraordinary phenomenon", compelling enough *for them* to consider more than just a vague possibility there is some sort of god out there then go and immerse themselves in a belief system founded by people with primitive morals and p ...[text shortened]... .."
[hidden]Or insert daft beliefs from other religions if you like[/hidden]

??? 😕

We could try to wrap our minds around everything coming from nothing for
no reason.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
We could try to wrap our minds around everything coming from nothing for
no reason.
Kelly

Maybe it didn't come from nothing but it was always here.

A black hole looks like nothing but it spits out Quasars.

Originally posted by KellyJay
We could try to wrap our minds around everything coming from nothing for
no reason.
Kelly

Science doesn't claim everything came form nothing, religion does.