1. Standard memberknightmeister
    knightmeister
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    03 Apr '07 13:24
    I notice that many Atheists on this thread get very angry and judgemental at Theists for being self delusional , or dishonest , or brainwashed etc etc . However , if we really do have no free will then theists are just programmed to be this way. Religion is a product of nature not men. Better to get angry with evolution than the individuals. Would you get angry with a cat for killing a mouse? Maybe. But would it be rational to stay angry? If we are all robots with no free will then ultimately all anger at human actions is irrational because without free will we cannot say "they shouldn't be like that!" . If religion is a self delusional crock then who is to blame? Not men surely , men are not free , theists only do what they are programmed by nature to do. Judgement and anger only make logical sense in the context of at least some free will. So all you hard determinists out there - are you willing to either drop your anger or drop your determinism?

    See my point?
  2. Joined
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    03 Apr '07 13:26
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    I notice that many Atheists on this thread get very angry and judgemental at Theists for being self delusional , or dishonest , or brainwashed etc etc . However , if we really do have no free will then theists are just programmed to be this way. Religion is a product of nature not men. Better to get angry with evolution than the individuals. Would you ...[text shortened]... there - are you willing to either drop your anger or drop your determinism?

    See my point?
    I totally see your point...with you all the way !!! 🙂
  3. Cape Town
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    03 Apr '07 13:311 edit
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    See my point?
    Are you making the claim that without theism there is no free will? Or are you lumping all atheists together again?
    [edit] What if we get angry because we are programmed to get angry?
  4. Subscribersonhouse
    Fast and Curious
    slatington, pa, usa
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    03 Apr '07 15:40
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    Are you making the claim that without theism there is no free will? Or are you lumping all atheists together again?
    [edit] What if we get angry because we are programmed to get angry?
    I would say there is free will within bounds, atheism or theism aside.
    You clearly have the free will to not kill people or to kill people, mental illness or politically or religiously motivated fanaticism aside which is after all, only representative of an extremely small percentage of the population, I would say way under 10 percent. So assuming those numbers are correct, it would be fair to say you have 90% free will, which means theists who deny the scientifically evidential world, especially in terms of evolution, which theists seem not to be able to differentiate between changing states of life and the beginnings of life, which belong to two differant catagories, evolution does not even TRY to say how life started, just how it changes with time and environment, so in that regard, most christian theists are pigheaded dogmatists who cannot read the writing on the wall, only the writing of the so-called bible, so blinded by their brainwashing techniques so successfully they will remain blind for their entire lives for the most part so in that light, I, for instance, even though I am reasonably sure there is no god, are not angry but incredibly sad at the waste of intellectual ability freely given over to their brainwashing agents of humans.
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    03 Apr '07 15:42
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    I would say there is free will within bounds, atheism or theism aside.
    You clearly have the free will to not kill people or to kill people, mental illness or politically or religiously motivated fanaticism aside which is after all, only representative of an extremely small percentage of the population, I would say way under 10 percent. So assuming those nu ...[text shortened]... d at the waste of intellectual ability freely given over to their brainwashing agents of humans.
    You sound angry and clearly have issues...
  6. Hmmm . . .
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    03 Apr '07 16:07
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    I notice that many Atheists on this thread get very angry and judgemental at Theists for being self delusional , or dishonest , or brainwashed etc etc . However , if we really do have no free will then theists are just programmed to be this way. Religion is a product of nature not men. Better to get angry with evolution than the individuals. Would you ...[text shortened]... there - are you willing to either drop your anger or drop your determinism?

    See my point?
    I notice that many Atheists on this thread get very angry and judgemental at Theists for being self delusional , or dishonest , or brainwashed etc etc .

    Mostly, I have been charged with such things by theists on here (though not often). That is not to say that I may not be self-delusional or brainwashed (though there must’ve been a second washing, because I was a Christian theist for about 45 years); if I am dishonest, then I am dishonest with myself—and I do try to maintain a ruthless self-vigilance on that score.

    It is not the charges per se that I become angry about (though I sometimes do: my fault)—it is the the kind of persistence in the face of anything I might say. As if, if I say “No, I am not being dishonest”, that someohw shows that, in fact, I am.

    You have never done this, KM—at least not to me.
  7. Joined
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    03 Apr '07 16:12
    Originally posted by vistesd
    [b]I notice that many Atheists on this thread get very angry and judgemental at Theists for being self delusional , or dishonest , or brainwashed etc etc .

    Mostly, I have been charged with such things by theists on here (though not often). That is not to say that I may not be self-delusional or brainwashed (though there must’ve been a second washing, ...[text shortened]... st”, that someohw shows that, in fact, I am.

    You have never done this, KM—at least not to me.[/b]
    What stopped you after 45 years!!!
  8. Standard memberknightmeister
    knightmeister
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    03 Apr '07 16:15
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    I would say there is free will within bounds, atheism or theism aside.
    You clearly have the free will to not kill people or to kill people, mental illness or politically or religiously motivated fanaticism aside which is after all, only representative of an extremely small percentage of the population, I would say way under 10 percent. So assuming those nu ...[text shortened]... d at the waste of intellectual ability freely given over to their brainwashing agents of humans.
    It sounds like you believe that free choices are indeed possible for human beings. If so have you really thought through what this means? The implications of this are huge. What this would mean is that in a universe of caused events determined by natural laws , human beings stand alone and unique in their ability to be free of determined pathways and make real choices. But in a universe determined purely by natural law how is this possible? Surely every human action could in theory be predicted by evolution and science , and therefore they would not be free actions. There would have to be something else going on that was not bound by the natural laws of the universe.
  9. Standard memberknightmeister
    knightmeister
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    03 Apr '07 16:17
    Originally posted by vistesd
    [b]I notice that many Atheists on this thread get very angry and judgemental at Theists for being self delusional , or dishonest , or brainwashed etc etc .

    Mostly, I have been charged with such things by theists on here (though not often). That is not to say that I may not be self-delusional or brainwashed (though there must’ve been a second washing, ...[text shortened]... st”, that someohw shows that, in fact, I am.

    You have never done this, KM—at least not to me.[/b]
    I have watched your posts with interest for the last few weeks. Do you agree with me that true free will is suggestive of something above and beyond natural law (ie supernatural)?
  10. Standard memberknightmeister
    knightmeister
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    03 Apr '07 16:26
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    Are you making the claim that without theism there is no free will? Or are you lumping all atheists together again?
    [edit] What if we get angry because we are programmed to get angry?
    Are you making the claim that without theism there is no free will? WHITEY

    I do think that belief in free will is inconsistent with many things Atheists usually go with. In a truely mechanistic universe governed solely by natural laws there should by rights be no free will. The view science has of the universe is that if we had a computer big enough and a good enough understanding of biological life and the laws that govern the universe then we should in theory be able to predict every human action. Every human action should be able to be traced back (via an incredibly complex process) to the big bang. There is no room for free will in a mechanistic universe so how could free will come about ? It's very peculiar and to me suggestive of something that is not governed by natural law and is free of determinism. Such a thing could be an uncaused supernatural entity. Without something like that I do not see how free will is possible.
  11. Hmmm . . .
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    03 Apr '07 16:29
    Originally posted by Jay Joos
    What stopped you after 45 years!!!
    (1) Too long a story...

    (2) The key word there was “theist” (God as a being)—as I noted on the other thread. I am more of a Zennist or Taoist or...

    (3) I find what is called the “perennial philosophy” expressed and expressible across various religions, including Christianity.

    —here is a brief synopsis of the perennial philosophy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perennial_philosophy

    (4) When I argue from within a Christian paradigm, it is only against certain understandings that I argue.

    (5) I do not (hopefully) attempt to persuade anyone to leave their particular religious expression—again, though I may argue vis-à-vis certain positions within a religious expression.

    A useful exercise for you might be to read through the “Spiritual Quotes” thread on here, to get an idea of the range of thinking. I’ll bump it...
  12. Standard memberknightmeister
    knightmeister
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    03 Apr '07 16:30
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    Are you making the claim that without theism there is no free will? Or are you lumping all atheists together again?
    [edit] What if we get angry because we are programmed to get angry?
    Or are you lumping all atheists together again? WHITEY

    I said many Atheists. My experience on this forum is that there is a lot of judgement and anger about (admittedly from both sides) what has been directed at me seems very angry and dismissive at times and yet if these people really believe what they say they believe (ie no free will) then it's entirely irrational anger. I'm only doing what the natural universe has programmed me to do and yet they talk as if I should know better.
  13. Standard memberknightmeister
    knightmeister
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    03 Apr '07 16:31
    Originally posted by vistesd
    (1) Too long a story...

    (2) The key word there was “theist” (God as [b]a
    being)—as I noted on the other thread. I am more of a Zennist or Taoist or...

    (3) I find what is called the “perennial philosophy” expressed and expressible across various religions, including Christianity.

    —here is a brief synopsis of the perennial philosophy: http:// ...[text shortened]... the “Spiritual Quotes” thread on here, to get an idea of the range of thinking. I’ll bump it...[/b]
    (1) Too long a story...


    ...I've seen you write huge posts . How long can your story be? What was the thing that did it for you?
  14. Donationrwingett
    Ming the Merciless
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    03 Apr '07 16:33
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    Are you making the claim that without theism there is no free will? WHITEY

    I do think that belief in free will is inconsistent with many things Atheists usually go with. In a truely mechanistic universe governed solely by natural laws there should by rights be no free will. The view science has of the universe is that if we had a computer big enough ...[text shortened]... caused supernatural entity. Without something like that I do not see how free will is possible.
    If there is no free will, then there is no free will. C'est la vie! But I fail to see how free will is any more possible in conjunction with an omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent god. Free will is just as illusory in that situation as it would be in a purely mechanistic one.
  15. Hmmm . . .
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    03 Apr '07 16:36
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    I have watched your posts with interest for the last few weeks. Do you agree with me that true free will is suggestive of something above and beyond natural law (ie supernatural)?
    No. 🙂 I see no reason to assume that there is a supernatural category, only that there are likely things of the natural order that transcend our cognitive capabilites.

    I'm still thinking about this, but I tend to think that the supernatural has to be taken as a premise, not a conclusion.

    All the choices I make are made within natural constraints (physical, psychological). Neither unconstrained free will nor determinism seem reasonable to me.
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