will of god v free will

Originally posted by The Chess Express
If God made the milk, then he also made the bacteria in the milk that causes it to go bad, so the question is why didn’t God make the milk without the bacteria? Why didn’t God make humans without the desire to do evil?

Having free will is having the freedom to choose. Since we were created to love God, choosing to love God must be one of the choices. If God removes the ability of humans to do evil, what would our other choice be?

DF

Originally posted by DragonFriend
If God removes the ability of humans to do evil, what would our other choice be?

Does God have free will? Can He choose to do evil?

Do people in Heaven have free will? Can they choose to do evil?

If yes to either of these questions, then why couldn't He have made us like that?

Nemesio

Originally posted by Nemesio
Does God have free will? Can He choose to do evil?

Do people in Heaven have free will? Can they choose to do evil?

If yes to either of these questions, then why couldn't He have made us like that?

Nemesio

You have it half right, in that free will is not limited to an array of choices and evil. Believers are not stripped of their free will immediately upon presentation into the afterlife. While the sin nature will be dealt with successfully, Adam did not possess one upon creation.

However, that we were given a conscious and conspicuous choice to make, begins to reveal there is more than meets the eye, with respect to God's intents in the creation of human history. Satan is playing checkers, while God is playing chess.

Originally posted by DragonFriend
Having free will is having the freedom to choose. Since we were created to love God, choosing to love God must be one of the choices. If God removes the ability of humans to do evil, what would our other choice be?

DF

Take Jesus for example. Jesus had free will, do you agree? He mentioned that he could’ve called upon the forces of Heaven to stop his crucifixion, but he didn’t because he chose to obey the will of the father.

My question is, why didn’t God make us like Jesus from the beginning, so that we have the ability to choose, but the desire to always choose to do the right thing?

Originally posted by DragonFriend
Look at it from God's point of view. Some people will be good and they will end up sharing in God's love. Some people will be bad they will end up destroyed. In the end, God will get exactly what He wanted, people to share His love with.

I also have a question concerning this statement that you made. If we are to believe that God loves each one of us dearly, then how could God be getting “exactly what he wants” as you put it if a portion of us are destroyed in hell?

If God loves us dearly, then he wants us to be with him in Heaven. Do you want those that you love to wind up in hell?

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
You have it half right, in that free will is not limited to an array of choices and evil. Believers are not stripped of their free will immediately upon presentation into the afterlife. While the sin nature will be dealt with successfully, Adam did not possess one upon creation.

However, that we were given a conscious and conspicuous choice to make, b ...[text shortened]... tents in the creation of human history. Satan is playing checkers, while God is playing chess.

I was asking questions about the assumptions raised by DragonFiend, so it is impossible
to conclude that I have it wholly or partially right, because I have asserted nothing.

Do you care to answer the questions?

Nemesio

Originally posted by Nemesio
I was asking questions about the assumptions raised by DragonFiend, so it is impossible
to conclude that I have it wholly or partially right, because I have asserted nothing.

Do you care to answer the questions?

Nemesio

The questions have already been answered in the post. The fact that you asked them reveals you have at least picked up on the scent.

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
The questions have already been answered in the post. The fact that you asked them reveals you have at least picked up on the scent.

Does God have free will? Can He choose to do evil?

Do people in Heaven have free will? Can they choose to do evil?

You have it half right, in that free will is not limited to an array of choices and evil. Believers are not stripped of their free will immediately upon presentation into the afterlife. While the sin nature will be dealt with successfully, Adam did not possess one upon creation.

I'll assume that you've answered my two questions with a 'yes:' God and people in
heaven can choose to do evil, they simply don't.

If I've misunderstood you, then perhaps you might elaborate. (I'd prefer you not bother
to post if you are just going to posture some more.)

If yes to either of these questions, then why couldn't He have made us like that?

However, that we were given a conscious and conspicuous choice to make, begins to reveal there is more than meets the eye, with respect to God's intents in the creation of human history. Satan is playing checkers, while God is playing chess.

This sounds suspiciously like 'It's all part of God's masterplan.' That is, I don't detect
a direct answer to my question, but an evasion.

I'll ask again: Would you care to answer it?

Nemesio

Originally posted by Nemesio
I was asking questions about the assumptions raised by DragonFiend, so it is impossible
to conclude that I have it wholly or partially right, because I have asserted nothing.

Do you care to answer the questions?

Nemesio

Nemesio: "so it is impossible
to conclude that I have it wholly or partially right, because I have asserted nothing."

Like a good quizzmaster should ......

Originally posted by ivanhoe
[b]Nemesio: "so it is impossible
to conclude that I have it wholly or partially right, because I have asserted nothing."

Like a good quizzmaster should ......[/b]

Hello, Mr Troll!

🙄😵🙄😴😵🙄😵😴🙄😵🙄😴😵🙄😵

Originally posted by Nemesio

God and people in heaven can choose to do evil, they simply don't.
God is not able to sin. Man, however, in the afterlife, is currently not in heaven. Paradise, yes. Heaven, no. At this point, all that have died in Christ are resident in Paradise. In Paradise, apparently evil has been eradicated. Remember, in the Garden, the choice was not good versus evil, but dependence upon God, versus access to the knowledge of good and evil.

'It's all part of God's masterplan.'
There are some things unrevealed in Scripture. This is one of them, at least to my understanding at this point in my advance. Quite frankly, knowledge of how God does away with evil is of little importance now, given all of the other questions before you. First things first.

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
God is not able to sin. Man, however, in the afterlife, is currently not in heaven. Paradise, yes. Heaven, no. At this point, all that have died in Christ are resident in Paradise. In Paradise, apparently evil has been eradicated. Remember, in the Garden, the choice was not good versus evil, but dependence upon God, versus access to the knowledge of good and evil.

So, does God have free will? Do the people in paradise have free will?

There are some things unrevealed in Scripture. This is one of them, at least to my understanding at this point in my advance. Quite frankly, knowledge of how God does away with evil is of little importance now, given all of the other questions before you. First things first.

So, you do not have an answer to why God didn't just make us with free will, but
predisposed to avoiding evil, like say Jesus?

Nemesio

Originally posted by Nemesio

So, does God have free will? Do the people in paradise have free will?
Yes. Yes.

So, you do not have an answer to why God didn't just make us with free will, but predisposed to avoiding evil, like say Jesus?
Hold the phone. There is no such things as a predisposition to avoiding evil. Where did you get that? Man was initially created without sin. There was no sin nature. Adam made his choice for the woman, against God, and, in so doing, his actions led to all those who followed to inherit the sin nature.
One Man was born without the aid of a man, via the woman's seed, thus without a sin nature... just like the first man. The Lord Jesus Christ, as the God-man, was not able to sin. The humanity of Jesus, as the man-God, was able to not sin, just as Adam was, but chose against the same.

Now we're talking.

So, if God has free will, and the people in paradise have free will, why did God
create us with such a weakness to fall to temptation and sin? That is, Jesus was
tempted, but He did not sin (or I assume you believe in this fundamental Christian
belief). Presumably, people in paradise would resist similar temptations.

Why would He make us in such a fashion that the man and woman would fall?
Doesn't this strike you as rather a big oversight for One with omniscience?

Man was initially created without sin. There was no sin nature. Adam made his choice for the woman, against God, and, in so doing, his actions led to all those who followed to inherit the sin nature.

For the sake of discussion, I'll take the above statement as dogmatically true. Don't
you think this seems an oversight on God's part, as well, that God would allow sin
nature to be passed down? Doesn't this seem a bit silly for someone with omnipotence,
who could arrange it such that the sins of the father have nothing to do with the son?

That is, why would a just God make it such that when my dad sins, it affects my nature?

Nemesio

Originally posted by Nemesio
Does God have free will? Can He choose to do evil?

Do people in Heaven have free will? Can they choose to do evil?

If yes to either of these questions, then why couldn't He have made us like that?

Nemesio

Does God have free will? Can He choose to do evil?
God is something of a special case. Yes, He has free will, but by definition, whatever He chooses is considered good by the things inside His creation. So from our viewpoint, He can not do evil, despite having free will.

Do people in Heaven have free will? Can they choose to do evil?
Yes, and yes. Satan was created an angel but chose to go against God.

If yes to either of these questions, then why couldn't He have made us like that?

He did. We're not God, but we have the same free will as the angels. We can choose to be good (like Jesus) or evil (like Satan).

DF

Originally posted by The Chess Express

My question is, why didn’t God make us like Jesus from the beginning, so that we have the ability to choose, but the desire to always choose to do the right thing?

Don't forget, while Jesus was fully human, He was also fully God. Therefore He understood the full picture of heaven and hell.
Imagine, if you will, that somebody has your child held hostage and every single time you do something even the slightest bit wrong, your child would get hit for it and his/her scream would sound in your earpiece. In that situation, how careful would you be as you went through your day?

God's love for us goes beyond what our minds can comprehend. Jesus, being God, knew that love first hand. I would think that would be one heck of a motivator to keep one's nose clean.

Yes, Jesus was tempted. But He also knew the full consequences of falling to even the smallest of temptations. We, not being God, don't have the whole picutre, and so we fall to temptation easier. The free will is the same. There aren't varying degrees of free will. What differed is the determination behind the choice to be good. Jesus' was move motivated to be good than we are.

DF