Without getting anything in return, would you f...

Originally posted by Penguin
Can I try to make it more explicit?

I think the original post is intended to mean there is no benefit to you if you do follow 'Gods ways' and [b]no punishment if you don't. So it's not a choice of limbo verses hell, everyone gets the same whatever they do.

I'm not sure that it's a good question but the answers could be interesting.

--- Penguin.[/b]

Well, I suppose I would still generally try to follow God's ways. Hurting someone who loves you isn't something I'm comfortable with.

Originally posted by bbarr
If God agreed with the deliverances of my moral deliberations, then sure I'd follow His ways. If His ways diverged from mine then I'd need to hear his reasons.

Surely you see that doubting all authority eventually erodes your own!

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
Surely you see that doubting all authority eventually erodes your own!

I'm explicitly not doubting all authority. First, I'm endorsing my own authority to determine what I ought to do. Second, I'm open to being convinced by the reasons of others. What I do explicitly deny is that I ought to do what some person decrees I ought to do simply because they decree it.

Originally posted by bbarr
I'm explicitly not doubting all authority. First, I'm endorsing my own authority to determine what I ought to do. Second, I'm open to being convinced by the reasons of others. What I do explicitly deny is that I ought to do what some person decrees I ought to do simply because they decree it.

Now that you put it that way, it makes more sense. However, if the position only acquieces to the 'other' along the lines of agreement, what would the distinction be?

Technically speaking, the eternal reward is not for any effort man puts into the equation; rather that reward is for our non-meritorious faith--- He has done all the work. Therefore, 'following His ways' in the strictest sense would yield results only for life here on earth.[/b]

Interesting. How do you interpret the following? Seems to me doing the will of the father is required.

Matthew 7:21-23
Not everyone who says to me,'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Many will tell me in that day,'Lord, Lord, didn't we prophesy in your name, in your name cast out demons, and in your name do many mighty works?'

Then I will tell them,'I never knew you. Depart from me, you who work iniquity.'

Originally posted by Penguin
Can I try to make it more explicit?

I think the original post is intended to mean there is no benefit to you if you do follow 'Gods ways' and [b]no punishment if you don't. So it's not a choice of limbo verses hell, everyone gets the same whatever they do.

I'm not sure that it's a good question but the answers could be interesting.

--- Penguin.[/b]

Thank you. That states it better than I did.

Funny, I thought it was a good question precisely because the answers could be interesting.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Interesting. How do you interpret the following? Seems to me doing the will of the father is required.

Matthew 7:21-23
Not everyone who says to me,'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Many will tell me in that day,'Lord, Lord, didn't we prophesy in your name, in your name cast ...[text shortened]... rks?'

Then I will tell them,'I never knew you. Depart from me, you who work iniquity.'

The middle part of that quote partly answers the query. Those who are able to boast 'many mighty works' are ineffectual in gaining entrance into the kingdom of Heaven--- even those works done in the name of God.

Therefore, one must know that the will of God is, and how it is accomplished. Throughout Scripture, 'doing the will of God' in the matter of salvation is faith.

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
The middle part of that quote partly answers the query. Those who are able to boast 'many mighty works' are ineffectual in gaining entrance into the kingdom of Heaven--- even those works done in the name of God.

Therefore, one must know that the will of God is, and how it is accomplished. Throughout Scripture, 'doing the will of God' in the matter of salvation is faith.

So in your mind that trumps the first and third verse?

Perhaps the second verse is pointing out that no matter how much you proclaim His name or do things to help others in His name, it can't make up for living an immoral life.

You believe it is optional that you treat others in a fair, forthright and honest manner? It is optional that one repents from pride, greed, arrogance, and all the other sins of the self?

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
So in your mind that trumps the first and third verse?

Perhaps the second verse is pointing out that no matter how much you proclaim His name or do things to help others in His name, it can't make up for living an immoral life.

You believe it is optional that you treat others in a fair, forthright and honest manner? It is optional that one repents from pride, greed, arrogance, and all the other sins of the self?

The second verse (in this passage, speaking nothing of the myriad verses throughout Scripture which support the same concept) speaks of the ineffectiveness of works. Are we to do good works? Of course! But they are not the basis for salvation.

Repentance is changing one's mind about the Christ, not about turning from sin. If turning from sin (or worse, feeling sorry for them) were the basis for salvation, who could be saved? How sorry must one be? What about when we foul up again?

The Bible speaks repeatedly about salvation being the work of Christ, exercised via faith. Works cannot purchase salvation.

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
The second verse (in this passage, speaking nothing of the myriad verses throughout Scripture which support the same concept) speaks of the ineffectiveness of works. Are we to do good works? Of course! But they are not the basis for salvation.

Repentance is changing one's mind about the Christ, not about turning from sin. If turning from sin (or wor ...[text shortened]... bout salvation being the work of Christ, exercised via faith. Works cannot purchase salvation.

Are you so sure this isn't just a self-serving rationalization?

It's not just about feeling sorry, it's about changing one's heart. Doesn't Jesus repeatedly ask for one's heart? Perhaps one needs to be sorry enough to change one's heart - to purify one's heart. If one's heart is truly changed, there is no more "fouling up" because there is an understanding of the nature of the sin and the desire becomes meaningless. Perhaps the love of Truth (God) that Jesus exemplified is what is required to turn away from the sin. Perhaps this is how He saves one from sin.


In answer to your question, few can be saved:
Matthew 7:13-14
"Enter in by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and many are those who enter in by it.

How narrow is the gate, and restricted is the way that leads to life! Few are those who find it.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Thanks for pointing that out. I hadn't noticed.

Without getting anything in return, would you follow God's ways?

I don't think this to be a fair question. It is like asking me if I would still like choclate ice cream if I could not taste it any more. Why would I then like it? God's ways pursue the living and the things that are benificial to life. His ways are not just beneficial for getting into heaven but for having life more abundantly here on earth. I, in fact, love his ways and love the wisdom in his ways. So to ask me if I would still follow his ways if I did not love his ways I would probably not because I would not feel compelled to do so because of the absence of love. You see we are motivated by what we love. It is what makes us tick.

Originally posted by whodey
I don't think this to be a fair question. It is like asking me if I would still like choclate ice cream if I could not taste it any more. Why would I then like it? God's ways pursue the living and the things that are benificial to life. His ways are not just beneficial for getting into heaven but for having life more abundantly here on earth. I, in fact, ...[text shortened]... of the absence of love. You see we are motivated by what we love. It is what makes us tick.

Good answer. As Penguin pointed out, the question is directed at the idea of following Gods ways for the sake of following His ways without having some sort of external reward / punishment system as incentive / disincentive such as heaven, hell, a downpayment on what one wants, etc.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Good answer. As Penguin pointed out, the question is directed at the idea of following Gods ways for the sake of following His ways without having some sort of external reward / punishment system as incentive / disincentive such as heaven, hell, a downpayment on what one wants, etc.

I think if I follow God's ways, it happens as a coincidence only -- not because I am seeking some sort of rewards. I don't kill other people because I think it is wrong, not because I'm following some rules which Moses claimed came from God.

Similarly, if I help others in difficulties, I do it on my own free will, not because I want so much to go to heaven when I die.

I have asked this question before: If a person does good deeds throughout his life, y'know, help others, be kind etc, would he go to heaven when he dies? The strange and silly answer is that you must do all those in conjunction with believing in God and worshiping him. Only then you are qualified to enter the kingdom of God. Well, I'll take my chances.

My favorite question for Christians is:
Jesus taught selfless giving. Would you give up your place in heaven to another?

Originally posted by twhitehead
My favorite question for Christians is:
Jesus taught selfless giving. Would you give up your place in heaven to another?

Jesus taught selfless giving.

Where does he do that?

Would you give up your place in heaven to another?

Even if I wanted to, I cannot.