This is a passage that is very misunderstood by many Christian churches and is a good example of how dangerous it is to modify the words of the Bible. Some do it inadvertently and some willfully in order to twist the teachings to support their church doctrine. First, there is no passage in the bible where Jesus condemns good works. Good works are good, it cannot be bad or evil. Wonderful works are works of miracles using the power of the Holy Spirit, and can be either good or evil, depending on what they are used for. Here is the passage:
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. (Matthew 7:18-23 KJV)
The Greek for 'wonderful works' :
δύναμις dunamis From G1410; force (literally or figuratively); specifically miraculous power (usually by implication a miracle itself): - ability, abundance, meaning, might (-ily, -y, -y deed), (worker of) miracle (-s), power, strength, violence, mighty (wonderful) work.
In the passage Jesus makes a statement about being wary of false prophets. They are like corrupt trees producing evil fruit and they will be destroyed. Next comes an example of these corrupt trees. Christians calling him Lord Lord [obviously believers] who described their works as wonderful works [these are miracle workers casting out devils etc]. Here comes the dangerous practice. Some Christians have removed the word 'wonderful' and inserted instead the word 'GOOD'. So they claim that Jesus condemns these people for doing good works. Even claiming that good works are corrupt and evil and the work of Satan.
Many Churches claim to practice wonderful works such as healing, casting out devils, speaking in tongues etc and these are not called good works by Christ. Good works are defined in the Sermon on the Mount in Matt 5, 6 and 7, and works of miracles are never regarded as good in this sermon.
So in the latter part of Matt 7, Jesus warns people about false prophets and to be wary of them. Then the eg of the Lord, Lord types who are false prophets is made. These are professed miracle workers {wonderful works], casting out devils etc in the name of Jesus. This sounds a lot like Christian church activity.
The wise man stays away from these Lord Lord false prophet types and keeps the commandments of Christ The foolish man does not hear Christ.
@rajk999 said"A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. "
This is a passage that is very misunderstood by many Christian churches and is a good example of how dangerous it is to modify the words of the Bible. Some do it inadvertently and some willfully in order to twist the teachings to support their church doctrine. First, there is no passage in the bible where Jesus condemns good works. Good works are good, it cannot be bad or ev ...[text shortened]... n on the Mount in Matt 5, 6 and 7, and works of miracles are never regarded as good in this sermon.
This passage talks about the tree; a good tree will bring forth good fruit while a bad one will be bad. The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; these are the types of things that we will see in a life in which the Spirit of God resides.
A bad tree life will be producing these: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. If all a life has going for it are fits of anger, enmity, strife, and things of this nature it will be evident as well.
We all can do good works, we all can do things we should, what separates us is the grace of God in our lives, saving faith by grace that causes us to do what our natural man would do.
James 2:19
You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder!
Luke 6: 32-32
If you love those who love you, what benefit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. And if you do good to those who do good to you, what benefit is that to you? For even sinners do the same.
@kellyjay saidIs there some point here that is relevant to the topic. If it is then please restate it. Note the topic is what the bible means by 'wonderful works' and why churches change it to 'good works'.
"A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. "
This passage talks about the tree; a good tree will bring forth good fruit while a bad one will be bad. The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace ...[text shortened]... you do good to those who do good to you, what benefit is that to you? For even sinners do the same.
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
The original temptation of Satan to man was to partake of a tree which God had told Adam would lead to his death. But it was not called "the tree of death" it was called "the tree of the knowledge of good and evil".
Notice that it was not simply "the tree of evil."
Nor was it "the tree of adultery" or "the tree of stealing" or "the tree of
selfishness' or any other specific crime we all would condemn as typically wrong
morally.
Neither was it merely "the tree of the knowledge of EVIL".
Its subtlety was more than that. It was "the tree of the knowledge of good and evil". Both knowing of good and knowing of evil were associated with this tree.
But it was actually a tree of the way to go OTHER than God's way. Because God had forbidden man to take in this source it was the "OTHER WAY" over against and opposed to and in rebellion to "the tree of life".
Satan was the source of independence from God totally.
His evil doing was independent from God of course.
But also his good doing was in independence and rebellion against God.
He corrupted his great wisdom with which he was created when he revolted to usurp God and overthrow the eternal authority of God's throne.
"You were perfect in your ways from the day that you were created, until unrighteousness was found in you." (Ezek. 28:15)
This could not be spoken of concerning any human being since the fall of Adam. The words are addressed to "the anointed cherub" who was set and established by God.
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
"You were the anointed cherub who covered the Ark' indeed I set you, so that you were upon the mountain of God; you walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire." (v.14)
This one, perfect in wisdom, corrupted this wisdom and became the source of death, with the power of death, the Devil.
" . . . that through death He [Christ] might destroy him who has the might of death, that is the devil." (Heb. 2:14)
The forbidden source for man, was this one represented to the first man as "the tree of the knowledge of good and evil".
Many times too numerous to mention, not only the evil was rejected by God but the good could be also:
Ie. "For all of us became like him who is unclean, And all our righteousness are like a soiled garment; and we all wither like a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind carry us away." (Isa. 64:6)
In the King James it reads " But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away."
Even in the secular world there is a saying that "The road to hell is paved with good intentions."
The Bible eventually exposes man's rebellion against God renders even his knowledge of good unclean before God. A pursuer of God must come to realize that "rebellion is as witchcraft" as King Saul had to learn. And God wants man to partake of Himself as divine and eternal life, being made completely one with the One from whom no one can be independent.
From the time the divine life was closed off to Satan infested man with his knowledge of good and evil, man was "alienated from the life of God" (Eph. 4:18)
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
But wait, didn't God say that He set before Israel good and evil in Deuteronomy?.
King James Bible - Deut. 30:15
"See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;"
In the progressive revelation of the Scriptures it is revealed that though the rebellious Adam took in the knowledge of good and evil, God had to show him that he had not the life power to reject always the evil he knew nor the life power to perform the good that he knew.
He had the knowledge. But being joined to the rebel Satan the Devil he was enslaved, corrupted, infested, parasitically hosting a force that made man incapable of obeying God even though God placed before him good and evil.
"Here's my LAW. Here, keep this. Keep this and live"
@rajk999 saidFor one who says that the verses in scripture that talk about righteousness, works, denying the Lord, and on and on when you don't like it, you seem to have no issues with the concern of what the Bible means.
Is there some point here that is relevant to the topic. If it is then please restate it. Note the topic is what the bible means by 'wonderful works' and why churches change it to 'good works'.
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
The challenge is that Jesus never condemned any good doing.
Well, I'm not so sure about that.
Here Jesus rebuked a man for attempting to force Jesus to arbitrate sharing of an inheritance. Wasn't that a "good" thing to be done?
"And someone out of the crowd said to Him, Teacher, tell my brother to divide the inheritance with me. But He said to him, Man, who appointed Me a judge or a divider over you? And He said to them, Watch and guard yourself from all covetousness, for no one's life is in the abundance of his possessions." (Luke 12:13,14)
Why didn't Jesus didn't Jesus demand that the man's brother appear on the spot that Jesus could do the good thing of fairly distributing what they were quarreling over?
The disciples once wanted to do the good of selling the "wasted' precious ointment poured out on Jesus' body for the sake of getting the monetary proceeds to the poor. Did Jesus encourage them or discourage their thought?
"A woman came to Him, having an alabaster flask of ointment of great value, and she poured it out on His head as He reclined at table. But when the disciples saw it, they were indignant, saying, Why this waste? For this could have been sold for much and given to the poor.
But Jesus, knowing it, said to them, Why do you trouble the woman? She has done a noble deed to Me. For the poor you have with you always, but you do not always have Me? For this pouring out of this ointment in My body, she has done it for My burial." (Matt. 26:7-12)
The love of Himself here transcended the act of selling property to give the money to the poor.
This is not an excuse in either case to be hard hearted. It is realization that Jesus does the right thing at the right time with the right spirit. So we need to be close to Him. led by Him, and move along with Him once He comes into our hearts.
@kellyjay saidYou are a crazy man. What does wonderful works mean, and why did you think Jesus condemn good works?
For one who says that the verses in scripture that talk about righteousness, works, denying the Lord, and on and on when you don't like it, you seem to have no issues with the concern of what the Bible means.
This has to be embarrassing for them. Its pathetic what churches do nowadays to support their false doctrines.
Here is the story :
They dont like good works
They cannot find one passage that condemns good works
So they take a passage in which Jesus condemns 'wonderful works', which means works of miracles like casting out devils, healing etc
They then start referring to that as good works
How sad that Christians need to resort to such low crooked tactics to find support for their church doctrine.
So sad that sonship has gone bonkers and posting totally irrelevant garbage. KJ is ignoring the topic and the other joker has gone missing.
- Joined
- 25 Nov 21
- Moves
- 1990
@rajk999 saidNobody said they didn’t like good works. All I’ve said is they’re not a requirement for salvation, but evidence of salvation, and I stated why.
This has to be embarrassing for them. Its pathetic what churches do nowadays to support their false doctrines.
Here is the story :
They dont like good works
They cannot find one passage that condemns good works
So they take a passage in which Jesus condemns 'wonderful works', which means works of miracles like casting out devils, healing etc
They then start referri ...[text shortened]... d posting totally irrelevant garbage. KJ is ignoring the topic and the other joker has gone missing.
Why would I try to find a passage or verse that condemns good works? I don’t condemn good works. I like good works.
But good works without belief and faith in Jesus Christ and in His Resurrection don’t save. Good works don’t forgive people of their sins. If they did, there’d be no point to the sacrificial system in the Old Testament.
Do you know this passage?
“Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.
For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,
Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.
Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.
And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.“
(Hebrews 9:18-26)
@pb1022 saidMuch of that is offtopic. Maybe you might want to explain why it is you used that passage to say that Jesus condemned those who did good works, and why you changed the word 'wonderful' to 'good' in order to accomplish your aim of condemning good works.
Nobody said they didn’t like good works. All I’ve said is they’re not a requirement for salvation, but evidence of salvation, and I stated why.
Why would I try to find a passage or verse that condemns good works? I don’t condemn good works. I like good works.
But good works without belief and faith in Jesus Christ and in His Resurrection don’t save. Good works don’t forg ...[text shortened]... end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.“
(Hebrews 9:18-26)
That is the issue.
In any event you posted this stuff already in another thread and this is a whole different topic. My question in the other thread on all this is copied here:
How many people do you think Jesus and the disciples preached to .. say before He ascended into heaven? Several thousand, several hundred thousand ?
Can you quote one passage where Jesus says that belief in his resurrection is so important as you are claiming? There are NONE.
Now that means the Gospel of Christ and the preachings of disciples are defective.
What is your response to that?
- Joined
- 25 Nov 21
- Moves
- 1990
@rajk999 saidNone of that was off-topic. It demonstrates that good works don’t forgive sins; only the shedding of blood does - in both the Old and New Testaments, in both the Old and New Covenants. Jesus Christ Himself said so.
Much of that is offtopic. Maybe you might want to explain why it is you used that passage to say that Jesus condemned those who did good works, and why you changed the word 'wonderful' to 'good' in order to accomplish your aim of condemning good works.
That is the issue.
In any event you posted this stuff already in another thread and this is a whole different topic. My ...[text shortened]... ospel of Christ and the preachings of disciples are defective.[/i]
What is your response to that?
“For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.”
(Matthew 26:28)
I never said Jesus condemned good works. I cited that passage to show good works don’t save - only belief and faith in Jesus Christ and in His Resurrection saves.
I didn’t change the word “wonderful” to “good.” I quoted the passage verbatim from the KJV.
And I don’t condemn good works. I applaud good works. I do quite a few myself - not to become saved but because I am saved.
In answer to your question, Jesus Christ hadn’t been Resurrected for nearly all of the Gospels.
But He stated the will of the Father in John 6:40:
“And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.”
And after His Resurrection, He said this:
“Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.”
(John 20:27-29)
And before His Resurrection, He said this:
“Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.”
(John 14:6)
@pb1022 saidDo you know what the Gospel Message of Jesus Christ was all about?
None of that was off-topic. It demonstrates that good works don’t forgive sins; only the shedding of blood does - in both the Old and New Testaments, in both the Old and New Covenants. Jesus Christ Himself said so.
“For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.”
(Matthew 26:28)
I never said Jesus condemned good works. I c ...[text shortened]... im, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.”
(John 14:6)