You must be born again!

Originally posted by KellyJay
I'll ask again.

Changed in the heart in mind, as in what does that mean? You repent, so it
is just you stop doing bad stuff and do good, OR you get a make over by
God who changes you completely? What do you mean, is it something else
completely?
Kelly

Is there reference for this idea of God giving you a makeover, or changing you completely?

I suspect that cannot possibly be in the Bible. Because the freewill continues to exist after accepting Christ into your life. Many have abandoned good and gone across to evil. Even Satan it is alleged was given the power of the Holy Spirit and it was used for evil.

This idea many Christians have of getting a compelete make over and taking that to mean that they cannot sin is unbiblical foolishness.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Is there reference for this idea of God giving you a makeover, or changing you completely?

I suspect that cannot possibly be in the Bible. Because the freewill continues to exist after accepting Christ into your life. Many have abandoned good and gone across to evil. Even Satan it is alleged was given the power of the Holy Spirit and it was used for evil. ...[text shortened]... ng a compelete make over and taking that to mean that they cannot sin is unbiblical foolishness.

Being born again is a complete make over, but I was trying to find what it is
in your opinion according to scripture. Being a new creature in Christ is in
my opinion a complete make over.
Kelly

KJV 2 Corinthians:

16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Is there reference for this idea of God giving you a makeover, or changing you completely?

I suspect that cannot possibly be in the Bible. Because the freewill continues to exist after accepting Christ into your life. Many have abandoned good and gone across to evil. Even Satan it is alleged was given the power of the Holy Spirit and it was used for evil. ...[text shortened]... ng a compelete make over and taking that to mean that they cannot sin is unbiblical foolishness.

Please do not put words in my mouth, you have never seen me say it was
okay to sin.
Kelly

Originally posted by Rajk999
Is there reference for this idea of God giving you a makeover, or changing you completely?

I suspect that cannot possibly be in the Bible. Because the freewill continues to exist after accepting Christ into your life. Many have abandoned good and gone across to evil. Even Satan it is alleged was given the power of the Holy Spirit and it was used for evil. ...[text shortened]... ng a compelete make over and taking that to mean that they cannot sin is unbiblical foolishness.

What do you say it means according to scripture?
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
What do you say it means according to scripture?
Kelly

I say [like I did before] that being born again is SUPPOSED TO CHANGE YOU INTO A NEW CREATURE. It is not always the case.

Originally posted by Rajk999
I say [like I did before] that being born again is SUPPOSED TO CHANGE YOU INTO A NEW CREATURE. It is not always the case.

Yes it is every case every time unless you think Jesus lies, but not
everyone who makes the claim actually is born again. If you do not have
God's Spirit you do not belong to God. It is difficult really impossible to do
the works God has for us if we are not following God's Spirit.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
Yes it is every case every time unless you think Jesus lies, but not
everyone who makes the claim actually is born again. If you do not have
God's Spirit you do not belong to God. It is difficult really impossible to do
the works God has for us if we are not following God's Spirit.
Kelly

Well we agree on that.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Well we agree on that.

Yea! 🙂
Is there a difference between those that do not belong to Christ and those
that do? With respect to if God will accept them or anything about them
in your opinion as you read scripture?
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
Yea! 🙂
Is there a difference between those that do not belong to Christ and those
that do? With respect to if God will accept them or anything about them
in your opinion as you read scripture?
Kelly

Those who belong to Christ are in a special group. I dont know if there is any parallel with the comparison between the 144,000 and the uncountable mass of believers referred to in Revelation or if it is the same thing.

Anyway there are times in the writings of the Apostles when they refer to 'those in Christ' or 'those that are Christs', and I would resist to temptation to apply that to all of Christianity as some people do. On many occasions the Apostles are referring to that special small group. The reason for this differentation is that these were probably 'chosen from the foundation of the world'. Not all Christians are chosen from the foundation of the world. These were chosen to rule as kings and priests with Christ. Not all Chrsitians fall in that category.

There are also many who will be in Gods Kingdom who do not belong to Christ ie did not come through Christ time or after. All from Adam to Christ would fall in that group and all who are good people who did not know of Christ as Paul describes in Romans 2:9-15.

Here are a couple verses worth examining and there are many like these:

Mat 12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

1Jn 2:17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Those who belong to Christ are in a special group. I dont know if there is any parallel with the comparison between the 144,000 and the uncountable mass of believers referred to in Revelation or if it is the same thing.

Anyway there are times in the writings of the Apostles when they refer to 'those in Christ' or 'those that are Christs', and I would res ...[text shortened]... rld passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever. [/i]

The will of the Father is what exactly, since you seem to stress that quite a
bit? I believe it starts with accepting Jesus Christ and from there you follow
the lead of the Spirit, which means without the Spirit of God, you do not
belong to God, nor can you do the work of God.

Those that belong to Christ are those that accept Him as Lord and Savior,
not sure how you can get any more special than that. Why would you
resist saying those that belong to Christ are indeed Christians? I don't see
anything beyond what Jesus said that only a few will find him which is
the Church. I really don't understand you in this! Not trying to put you down
I believe that many that call themselves Christian don't know the Lord and
really want nothing to do with Him, yet you accept them as Christian, but
you reject most Christians as being "those that are Christs'". It does not
compute so to speak. 🙂
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
The will of the Father is what exactly, since you seem to stress that quite a
bit? I believe it starts with accepting Jesus Christ and from there you follow
the lead of the Spirit, which means without the Spirit of God, you do not
belong to God, nor can you do the work of God.

Those that belong to Christ are those that accept Him as Lord and Savior,
...[text shortened]... most Christians as being "those that are Christs'". It does not
compute so to speak. 🙂
Kelly

Im not sure I agree with this or maybe you did not say it clearly:

"..Those that belong to Christ are those that accept Him as Lord and Savior.."

My understanding is those that belong to Christ are those that CHRIST ACCEPTS.

I think that is our main difference.

100 people will say they accept Christ as Lord and Saviour.
Christ may only accept a portion of those.

I will use Caljust's line here, that the Body of Christ is bigger than Christianity.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Im not sure I agree with this or maybe you did not say it clearly:

[b]"..Those that belong to Christ are those that accept Him as Lord and Savior.."

My understanding is those that belong to Christ are those that CHRIST ACCEPTS.

I think that is our main difference.

100 people will say they accept Christ as Lord and Saviour.
Christ may only ac ...[text shortened]... f those.

I will use Caljust's line here, that the Body of Christ is bigger than Christianity.[/b]

I confused so we are not talking to one another, not your fault, I think we
may be saying the same words, but clearly not saying the same thing.

I do not believe anyone will be "Christ's" unless they accept the call on their
lives that God put there. You saying that Christ will accept those that have
nothing to do with Him?
Kelly

Originally posted by Rajk999
Im not sure I agree with this or maybe you did not say it clearly:

[b]"..Those that belong to Christ are those that accept Him as Lord and Savior.."

My understanding is those that belong to Christ are those that CHRIST ACCEPTS.

I think that is our main difference.

100 people will say they accept Christ as Lord and Saviour.
Christ may only ac ...[text shortened]... f those.

I will use Caljust's line here, that the Body of Christ is bigger than Christianity.[/b]

You have already seen me say that not everyone who says, "Lord" to Jesus
actually belongs to Him, mainly because they want nothing to do with Him.
If you are in agreement with me there, then who does belong to Christ?
Is it only those that accept Him as God calls us to Him, or do you see a
much wider array of people belonging to Christ?
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
You have already seen me say that not everyone who says, "Lord" to Jesus
actually belongs to Him, mainly because they want nothing to do with Him.
If you are in agreement with me there, then who does belong to Christ?
Is it only those that accept Him as God calls us to Him, or do you see a
much wider array of people belonging to Christ?
Kelly

We agree on some of the basics, but I see the wide group.

I see Christ as the Son of God who came to save mankind. Those who hear of Christ, and accept Christ with their mouth are in a privileged postion as they are in line to be saints with Christ IF in addition to mouth acceptance and claims of faith they also live righteously as Christ did... THATS IF. If they dont, then Christ will judge.

I see Christ also as an embodiment of righteousness and good works. I will copy this from Whodeys thread on Enoch as this states it pretty nicely, although the same sentiment is in the Bible many times by many writers :

This is the Son of Man, to whom belongs righteousness, and with whom righteousness dwells. And he will open all the hidden storerooms; for the Lord of the Spirits has chosen him, and he is destined to be victorious before the Lord of Spirits in eternal uprightness. This Son of Man whom you have seen is the One who would remove the kings and the mighty ones from their comfortable seats and the strong ones from their thrones. He shall loosen the reins of the strong and crush the teeth of the sinners. He shall depose the kings from their thrones and kingdoms. For they do not extol and glorify him, and neither do they obey him, the source of their kingship.

Christ will gather the righteous and destroy the sinners. The righteous extend far beyond the main core of genuine Christians.

Originally posted by Rajk999
We agree on some of the basics, but I see the wide group.

I see Christ as the Son of God who came to save mankind. Those who hear of Christ, and accept Christ with their mouth are in a privileged postion as they are in line to be saints with Christ IF in addition to mouth acceptance and claims of faith they also live righteously as Christ did... THATS IF. ...[text shortened]... us and destroy the sinners. The righteous extend far beyond the main core of genuine Christians.

So without Jesus' saving grace on their lives, good works can get
someone in good with God?
Kelly