05 Apr 06
Originally posted by Mister MeanerI thought I was really asking something along the lines of "What is the real difference between the first and the tenth Ox herding Picture"
I didn't think I was asking that?
In the URL that starts this thread we see Seung Shan's thoughts about this and how he thinks Enlightenment may affect us. Zen's attraction (to me at least) apart from the witty one liners, is that the philosophy aims at utter simplicity in direct contrast to some of the Indian thinking (The seven stages of A, followe ...[text shortened]... ing that the Zen Masters seem to be encouraging us to dispense with, as in the URL above.
There is enormous difference between the 1st and the 10th Oxherding pictures and what they represent. The 1st represents the beginning of the conscious search, the 10th, its completion and fulfilment. This is like the difference between the acorn and the tree. Yes, the tree is held in potential in the acorn, so in a sense both are the same. But in the totality of manifestation, there is no comparison. The acorn is a baby, the tree is the adult.
and how can we tell the difference without falling into some trap relating to selfishness or judgement if we are looking at someone-else (a potential guide, perhaps)
If we've truly arrived at the 10th Oxherding picture, then ignorance is extinguished. That by definition is what it is.
In the URL that starts this thread we see Seung Shan's thoughts about this and how he thinks Enlightenment may affect us. Zen's attraction (to me at least) apart from the witty one liners, is that the philosophy aims at utter simplicity in direct contrast to some of the Indian thinking (The seven stages of A, followed by the 14 even subtler stages of A1, A2 and so on in their endless categorisations).
Yes, philosophically speaking, the Indian mind has been concerned with splitting hairs. It is a very internalized mind. The Japanese mind is the polar opposite, highly externalized and environmentally focused. Put in Western terms, the Indian mind is focussed on idealism, and the Japanese mind is focussed on realism.
The Chinese mind is somewhere between the two. And because Zen took birth in China, it was considered by most historians to have arisen through the influence of Chinese Taoism on Indian Buddhism.
Taoism can be enigmatic but is a much simpler philosophy than the vast tracts of Indian metaphysics. So the natural Chinese effect on Indian Buddhism when it arrived in China was to temper it with the simplistic touch of Taoism. When this brand of Buddhism -- "Cha'an Buddhism" -- migrated yet again from China to Japan, the Japanese simplified it even more, and wedded much of it to an interrelationship with the environment via rock gardens, very austerely and effectively tailored monasteries, and so on. Even the colors changed, from the bright saffron/orange or ochre robe of the Indian Buddhist monk to the austere grey and black of the Japanese Zen monk. Everything about Japanese Zen is down to Earth.
The disappointment has been the ceremonial (cultural??) aspects, altar worship and so on, of which the orthodox church might be justly proud. You may guess I distrust ritual magic.
There is some ritual in Zen, yes. North American or European Zen minimizes it, but you still find it in Japan. It does serve a certain purpose, however. Years ago I practiced briefly in a Zen temple and the robes I wore and the bowing I undertook, along with the ritual eating and tea drinking, etc., all contributed toward the calming of the mind.
In a general sense Spirituality must be about nourishing/uplifting the human spirit.
Actually, I'd assign that more to a very basic level of spirituality, such as attending church once a week, etc. For the more serious seeker, the issue of being "uplifted" tends to lose import, mostly because one become increasingly concerned with going beyond illusions and discovering the Real. This above all else.
I don't mean ghostlike entity - I don't believe in such things, I mean how we "feel in ourselves". Perhaps similar to how we can be uplifted if our cricket team wins, or we achieve something like a running a marathon, or winning a chess match against a much stronger player.
Yes, but these would be more conditional peak experiences, that is, they are conditional on "beating" someone, etc., or on some external factor. The idea with awakening as it's defined in the Zen tradition is that of piercing the illusory veil of the mind and accessing our natural state of well being that is the core of our nature.
In many ways I am not certain that Zen need have much to do with Buddhism (particularly for westerners) because in a sense Buddhism seems to me to bring extra layers of thinking that the Zen Masters seem to be encouraging us to dispense with, as in the URL above.
And at the same time, Zen is a denomination of Buddhism. Zen is to Buddhism somewhat like Protestantism is to Christianity. That is, a younger, more simplified form of it, dispensing with certain rituals and forms of worship.
05 Apr 06
1 edit
Originally posted by MetamorphosisI am slightly confused by your commentary here.
1. In a general sense Spirituality must be about nourishing/uplifting the human spirit.
2. Perhaps like when you have achieved something like running a marathon...
Your answer to to 2 seems to me to be the point I was making in 1. where "accessing our natural state of well being" is the purpose of Spirituality in general, by whatever tradition whether within or without Buddhism.
However every action, at whatever level is either skilful or unskilful, in line with Buddha's teachings about Right Action with Right Mind etc so I don't think you can divorce any part of life and say it is not Spiritual Practice, potentially at any rate.
Thanks very much for persisting with this thread by the way. Perhaps we are closer to an understanding of Zen and enlightenment. Zen again, maybe not!
05 Apr 06
Originally posted by widgetEnlightenment defies being defined by words
Enlightenment defies being defined by words 😲 Don't think about it, just be it! 😀 All this trying to pin it down with baffle-bag and bullsh*t merely provides you with the delusion - and you can pretend you are actually trying to improve the quality of your brief existence on this sad, spinning globe. 😴 Wrong...
Actually, as I argue elsewhere (Religion will never die) that religion is a human construct, I don't see why you can't define a religious principle in words.
brief existence on this sad, spinning globe. 😴 Wrong...
Why is this spinning globe sad?
05 Apr 06
Originally posted by Mister MeanerReligion is an organized experience. 😞 Enlightenment is a personal state of being. Confusing the impulse towards at-one-ment or being-one-with-everything and organized worship is perhaps the biggest trap that the seeking spirit must contend with... :'( Argue all you want. Words are clumsy tools for approaching ecstasy.
[b]Enlightenment defies being defined by words
Actually, as I argue elsewhere (Religion will never die) that religion is a human construct, I don't see why you can't define a religious principle in words.
brief existence on this sad, spinning globe. 😴 Wrong...
Why is this spinning globe sad?[/b]
Like a juicy orange spoiled by sickly fungal mould, this sad globe spins under our dangerous humanity. :'(
05 Apr 06
Originally posted by widgetI profoundly disagree! Religious impulse may lead one to experience organised worship or take up TM and practice on one's own. It can even be seen as some psychological phenomena and ignored.
Religion is an organized experience. 😞 Enlightenment is a personal state of being. Confusing the impulse towards at-one-ment or being-one-with-everything and organized worship is perhaps the biggest trap that the seeking spirit must contend with... :'( Argue all you want. Words are clumsy tools for approaching ecstasy.
Like a juicy orange spoiled by sickly fungal mould, this sad globe spins under our dangerous humanity. :'(
That enlightenment = ectasy is likely a more dangerous trap to fall into for a seeker looking to change their world view. As far I know Zen never said that.
A mouldy orange eh? Sounds ecstatic!
05 Apr 06
You posted these two comments under "originally posted by Metamorphosis", but they were actually your comments...
"1. In a general sense Spirituality must be about nourishing/uplifting the human spirit.
2. Perhaps like when you have achieved something like running a marathon..."
Your answer to to 2 seems to me to be the point I was making in 1. where "accessing our natural state of well being" is the purpose of Spirituality in general, by whatever tradition whether within or without Buddhism.
Yes, but I distinguish between "nourishing/uplifiting human spirit" and "accessing our natural state of well being". The difference as I see it is important -- in the former, we are trying to "uplift" ourselves in some forceful manner, whereas in the latter, we are simply uncovering our true condition.
That enlightenment = ectasy is likely a more dangerous trap to fall into for a seeker looking to change their world view. As far I know Zen never said that.
That's correct. "Ecstasy" is mentioned in some devotional traditions, like Sufism (Kabir, Rumi, Khayyam, etc.), but not in the Zen tradition.
My own take on it is that "ecstasy" has nothing to do with enlightenment. Ecstasy is more related to peak experiences, often with plenty of ego involved. Enlightenment is not a peak experience. It's much simpler, much more "steady-state", and ultimately, nothing special at all. It's simply the actuality of each moment, as experienced by a mind that is undisturbed, clear, and relaxed.
In the Vedic traditions of India, there is the teaching that enlightenment is "sat, chit, ananda", meaning roughly, "truth, consciousness, bliss". From this, has arisen the idea that to be enlightened means one is in bliss all the time. This is mostly nonsense, however, more properly a kind of Hindu fundamentalism, something like the Christian fundamentalism that assumes that if you are not saved by Jesus you can't know God, etc.
A study of the literature of awakened mystics reveals that virtually none of them talk about "ecstasy" or "ongoing bliss" as some 24/7 experience. In the Zen tradition especially, much more commonly what is talked about are qualities like simplicity, silence, ordinariness, and direct understanding of nonduality. Such understanding may include feelings of bliss, but then again, it might not. The main point is, however, that enlightenment is not a feeling. Feelings simply come and go, like changing weather. Enlightenment is the Ground of being itself, pure consciousness, like the entire "landscape" in which the "weather" of endless mental and emotional states are endlessly arising and subsiding, like waves on the ocean.
05 Apr 06
Originally posted by widgetIf you have such a disdain for words, what are you doing hanging out on a message board that uses words to communicate? To be true to your philosophy of "ecstatically seizing the moment" you should be outside picking flowers, or eating some nice souflee or something. Anything but posting on a chess forum.
Key words: none of them [b]talk about ecstasy... 😛 The rest is excess verbal baggage 😕[/b]
05 Apr 06
Originally posted by Metamorphosis(Nicely put by the way)
Enlightenment is the Ground of being itself, pure consciousness, like the entire "landscape" in which the "weather" of endless mental and emotional states are endlessly arising and subsiding, like waves on the ocean.[/b]
So where does that leave us? What happens after? To return to my original question: What is the point of Enlightenment? (I don't mean this in a negative "why bother" way. Neither do I buy pie in sky when you die)
05 Apr 06
Originally posted by MetamorphosisStrangely enough, you're very close to the truth 😀 Glimpses of nirvana everywhere you go!
...to be true to your philosophy of "ecstatically seizing the moment" you should be outside picking flowers, or eating some nice souflee or something. Anything but posting on a chess forum.
😉 Since I'm not at work today, I'm gardening. In and out of the yard for a break now and then 😛
I have a big pile of leaves burning in the backyard, the crocuses are just about finished, rhodedendrons all budded out and ready to open and the magnolia is in full bloom. 😏 A perfect day for it!
Hairy and downy woodpeckers flit from tree to tree and the first swallow just swooped over the yard. 😀
😞 My coveralls reek of woodsmoke from the fire but I'll bathe and then I'll cook some ribs over the fire for dinner. 😉 With any luck I'll be able to find an appropriate bottle of wine in my cellar. Cheers!
05 Apr 06
Originally posted by Mister MeanerFinally.... recognized again!!!
Blimey, its the reincarnation of Ryokan!!
First days of spring - blue sky, bright sun.
Everything is gradually becoming fresh and green.
Carrying my bowl, I walk slowly to the village.
The children, surprised to see me,
Joyfully crowd about, bringing
My begging trip to an end at the temple gate.
I place my bowl on top of a white rock and
Hang my sack from the branch of a tree.
Here we play with the wild grasses and throw a ball.
For a time, I play catch while the children sing;
Then it is my turn.
Playing like this, here and there, I have forgotten the time.
Passers-by point and laugh at me, asking,
"What is the reason for such foolishness?"
No answer I give, only a deep bow;
Even if I replied, they would not understand.
Look around! There is nothing but this.
RYÔKAN 😀