Zen Buddhism

Originally posted by eagles54
Do you experience a quiet place between thoughts?

Don't you?

Originally posted by KneverKnight
Don't you?

No. My mind is like a coke rat on a treadmill.

KneverKnight, I'll ask you.

In order to become a master of Zen, did Ryokan practice meditation?

If so, what for?

Originally posted by eagles54
KneverKnight, I'll ask you.

In order to become a master of Zen, did Ryokan practice meditation?

If so, what for?

I think the point of this was to stop striving to become and learn how to let one's natural self (space between the thoughts) emerge. Tricky.
I don't know if Ryokan "practiced" meditation, but he probably did meditate.
I'm not all that well-versed in these things though.

Originally posted by KneverKnight
I think the point of this was to stop striving to become and learn how to let one's natural self (space between the thoughts) emerge. Tricky.
I don't know if Ryokan "practiced" meditation, but he probably did meditate.
I'm not all that well-versed in these things though.

How does one learn to stop striving without a method (meditation)?

If I didn't practice meditation my mind would be like a breeding lab full on a picnic.

What's in the space between thoughts?

Originally posted by eagles54
How does one learn to stop striving without a method (meditation)?

If I didn't practice meditation my mind would be like a breeding lab full on a picnic.

Stop practising; perform!
Sorry, just getting into the spirit here.
If you are interested in meditation, a good place to start is with "breathing exercises" Just pick a quiet time, get comfy and focus your mind on observing how your body breathes. Just let it happen without trying to interfere. If you hear a noise from outside, just let it pass without judging it.
But I've said too much, others can help you more than I, eg there are probably resources for this online.

Originally posted by KneverKnight
Stop practising; perform!
Sorry, just getting into the spirit here.
If you are interested in meditation, a good place to start is with "breathing exercises" Just pick a quiet time, get comfy and focus your mind on observing how y ...[text shortened]... ou more than I, eg there are probably resources for this online.

I'm confused - what is the difference between practicing meditation and 'performing'?

If meditation has no causal relationship with enlightenment, why do teachers instruct in its usage?

I'm as thick as Dogen's brick, t'would seem.

Originally posted by frogstomp
Splash

That devil's pitch fork pricked a hole open in Ryokan's dingy and he fell into the water with a great splash only to discover that he could walk on the water because the gas from all the fish he ate gave him sufficient intertial-repulsive force.

Originally posted by KneverKnight
I think the point of this was to stop striving to become and learn how to let one's natural self (space between the thoughts) emerge. Tricky.
I don't know if Ryokan "practiced" meditation, but he probably did meditate.
I'm not all that well-versed in these things though.

That's pretty much it....with one refinement, I'd say -- that being that there is no "self to emerge" from the space between thoughts that is separate from who you recognize yourself to be. What the essence of the enlightenment experience is, is that our very identity is consciousness itself. Delusion occurs when we identify with thoughts and come to believe that we are our thoughts.

Originally posted by Metamorphosis
Delusion occurs when we identify with thoughts and come to believe that we are our thoughts.

I don't believe I am my thoughts but it hasn't alleviated my everyday confusion.

Originally posted by eagles54
I'm confused - what is the difference between practicing mediation and 'performing'?

If meditation has no causal relationship with enlightenment, why do teachers instruct in its usage?

I'm as thick as Dogen's brick, t'would seem.

Why meditate if our natural state already is?

That's the perennial question, and the very heart of the enlightenment paradox.

1. Nothing can be "done" to bring it about, as consciousness is already the case.

2. However -- and this is crucial -- it's not true that we should "do nothing", because if we do, then the ego is simply hijacking the process and utilizing the "need do nothing" idea as a justification for staying asleep.

3. So yes, we must practice...until we realize that our essential nature is already whole and complete. Practice can be compared to "dusting" the mirror of our consciousness. The mirror is already there, perfect in itself. But meditating or observing the mind is equivalent to "dusting", keeping the accumulations of daily thoughts from obscuring the realization of our natural state.

So in the Ryokan parable, he was instructing an advanced student who was ready to go beyond practice and enter into the ultimate practice, which is ongoing awareness of this moment. And in the parable the student in fact had a "satori" (sudden awakening) after Ryokan's words to him.

Originally posted by eagles54
I don't believe I am my thoughts but it hasn't alleviated my everyday confusion.

I'd say that "not believing" that we are our thoughts is a good foundation but not enough in itself, because this needs to go beyond "belief" into the domain of direct experience. Hence the need for practice...

Originally posted by Metamorphosis
So in the Ryokan parable, he was instructing an advanced student who was ready to go beyond practice and enter into the ultimate practice, which is ongoing awareness of this moment. And in the parable the student in fact had a "satori" (sudden awakening) after Ryokan's words to him.

Then there is a causal relationship between meditation practice and enlightenment that just wasn't apparent in the story before.

Thank you.

Originally posted by Metamorphosis
That devil's pitch fork pricked a hole open in Ryokan's dingy and he fell into the water with a great splash only to discover that he could walk on the water because the gas from all the fish he ate gave him sufficient intertial-repulsive force.

the devil laughed , good spiritedly, as he watched and heard Ryokan being jet-propulsed willy-nilly over the lake like an untied balloon.