1. Account suspended
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    28 Oct '13 21:55
    If you are going to practice Zen seriously, do you need a master or can you practice by yourself.
  2. Dublin Ireland
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    28 Oct '13 22:27
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    If you are going to practice Zen seriously, do you need a master or can you practice by yourself.
    If you want to replace your fuse box
    should you get an electrician?

    Or do it by yourself......................................


    If you want to expel demons............................................................
  3. Standard memberSwissGambit
    Caninus Interruptus
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    28 Oct '13 23:07
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    If you are going to practice Zen seriously, do you need a master or can you practice by yourself.
    Do they even believe you can be 'by yourself'?
  4. Standard memberkaroly aczel
    the Devil himself
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    29 Oct '13 00:431 edit
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    If you are going to practice Zen seriously, do you need a master or can you practice by yourself.
    Excellent question.

    I believe at some stage you do need direct attention from a decent master. (btw 'master' refers to self mastery , not mastering pupils)

    But everyone is different.

    Some have been fortunate enough to just read a few words from a master which can instantly put them on the right path (or even better), others need many years attention from a master to keep the pupil on the right path.

    For me it went like this :

    I wanted very much to goto Japan and join a monastary. I really felt strongly about it at a time in my life when me, my lady and our young girl were living in a very remote country area, with very little contact with others unless we wanted to initiate it by ourselves by travelling the 15 km to town.

    Long story short, I started meditating daily and often picturing me walking upto the gates of a Japanese Zen monastary. After a few months of meditation I got some sort of message. It was not like telepathy but more like my own mind telling me ,in a very direct and clear way, that I should stay in Australia.
    I felt that when I got to the gates the master would prolly just tell me that I'm more needed here, and better at communicating my insights to the people and society I was already used to.

    Since then I have been in no doubt about where my place should be, and true masters have an uncanny knack of showing up just when you need them .
  5. Standard memberkaroly aczel
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    29 Oct '13 00:47
    Originally posted by SwissGambit
    Do they even believe you can be 'by yourself'?
    yes .why not ?
  6. Standard memberSwissGambit
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    29 Oct '13 02:12
    Originally posted by karoly aczel
    yes .why not ?
    Because 'the self' is an illusion.
  7. Joined
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    29 Oct '13 04:07
    Originally posted by SwissGambit
    Because 'the self' is an illusion.
    But isn't the illusion, the illusion?
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    29 Oct '13 04:44
    Originally posted by SwissGambit
    Because 'the self' is an illusion.
    A useful one.
  9. SubscriberPianoman1
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    29 Oct '13 08:17
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    If you are going to practice Zen seriously, do you need a master or can you practice by yourself.
    Absolutely not! The great Alan Watts never had a teacher, but then again he was a bit of a maverick in that respect.
  10. Account suspended
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    29 Oct '13 09:25
    Originally posted by johnnylongwoody
    If you want to replace your fuse box
    should you get an electrician?

    Or do it by yourself......................................


    If you want to expel demons............................................................
    You think it might be dangerous to practice by oneself. My friend from India does.
  11. Account suspended
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    29 Oct '13 09:32
    Originally posted by SwissGambit
    Do they even believe you can be 'by yourself'?
    I have the feeling that it might be like chess that you need to remain absolutely objective all the time, which is not easy for its almost impossible to see ourselves the way others see us therefore the serious student works under a master who helps him or her transcend themselves. Sure you can play chess against yourself but I have always found it frustrating because I know the other guys plans.
  12. Standard memberkaroly aczel
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    29 Oct '13 23:23
    Originally posted by SwissGambit
    Because 'the self' is an illusion.
    Yes I understand that intellectually but do you understand it experientialy?
  13. Standard memberkaroly aczel
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    29 Oct '13 23:25
    Originally posted by Pianoman1
    Absolutely not! The great Alan Watts never had a teacher, but then again he was a bit of a maverick in that respect.
    But he was still influenced heavily by the words of Zen masters, was he not?
  14. Standard memberSwissGambit
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    30 Oct '13 01:11
    Originally posted by karoly aczel
    Yes I understand that intellectually but do you understand it experientialy?
    No. My experience suggests the opposite. I am not a Buddhist.
  15. Standard memberblack beetle
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    30 Oct '13 06:04
    Originally posted by SwissGambit
    Because 'the self' is an illusion.
    (They say)
    The self is an illusion at the level of the cosmic reality, due to the fact that the self does not inherently exist because of not being its parts, not being other than its parts, not being in its parts, not being that within which its parts exist, not possessing its parts, not being the composite of its parts and not being the shape of its parts.

    However, since at the level of the Floating Wold the self is experienced as an independent centre of operations that controls the experiential field of the psychophysical embodiment, the sentient beings have the sense of an independent self; well, this very sense is deconstructed by the Buddhist philosophy in a way that shows that ultimately there are neither inherently real causal processes nor inherently existent things involving definite entities to be found in reality. The occuring appearances of "self" etc are merely conventional manifestations within a seeming reality; Zen is just a way amongst many in the Buddhist tradition that shows that the notion of the existence of definite and inherently real entities and processes in an external and/ or an internal independent reality does not hold. The masters know it intellectually and experientially, and most times they can drive the disciples there, always keeping up reminding them that whatever is experienced within the Floating World it would be better seen as an illusion that must be taken seriously­čśÁ
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