Junior Seau

Originally posted by shortcircuit
Well, if the NFL goes down, so would the NHL and Professional Boxing to name a few.
Technically even the MLB and NBA would be tapped....to a lesser degree.
Think about it.

There may be "some" correlation....just like overhead power lines or cell phones tied
to cancer. Think either of those are going away any time soon?
And they have closer links with those items than they do with concussions.

You are completely minimizing the dangers of concussions.

The New York Times won awards for its series on NHL enforcers and the tolls it took on their body. The stories were stunning. One that stood out for me was they asked a player to name as many words as a he could that started with the letter R. He could not think of any. Perhaps you just laugh it off but it changed the way I look at head injuries.

MLB already pads walls and has batting helmets. I think they will use more protection and may eventually ban barreling over the catcher. But these changes are relatively minor and the game should fundimentally be able to be the same.

The NFL is facing direct liability as there are hundreds of former players suing the NFL. The liability is tremendous. The NFL is already changing rules to protect players. It is considering even more radical changes like eliminating kickoffs. You can laugh at liability issues but the NFL knows it needs to change to survive.
I imagine we are too far away from many school districts not being able to afford insurance and stop having teams and parents/ kids not being interested in playing football (or more interest in less violent games). The NFL wasn't always the most popular sport in the US and I think a generation from now it will no longer be the most popular sport.

There also is the costs of people finding it distasteful.

Originally posted by quackquack
You are completely minimizing the dangers of concussions.

The New York Times won awards for its series on NHL enforcers and the tolls it took on their body. The stories were stunning. One that stood out for me was they asked a player to name as many words as a he could that started with the letter R. He could not think of any. Perhaps you ju ...[text shortened]... longer be the most popular sport.

There also is the costs of people finding it distasteful.

Dude, I had 4 concussions myself while playing ball. One of the concussions had me
under 24 hour supervision at a hospital for two days.

I have not had any depression, suicidal tendencies, or anything else.
Everyone is not the same, nor it there any empirical evidence that conclusively proves
concussions are the sole cause of the condition of ANY of the athletes in question.

They may accentuate a condition present in them already, they may be contributory,
they may not have any effect at all. It is speculation at this point.

As far as protection goes, I don't care what helmet you wear, if you take a 100 mph
fastball to the head, your cookies are going to be scrambled. I took one at 95 and
it knocked a filling out of my tooth.

The games are inherently dangerous. There are risks that the players run. They are
well compensated. Mariano Rivera tears his ACL and MCL while shagging flyballs in
the outfield before a game. Stuff happens. Freak incidents happen. But because
Mariano Rivera fell and tore up his knee, that does not mean that every player that
shags flyballs at that section of the outfield will do the same damage.

Good night, the NFL used to play with leather skull caps, no face mask, and much
less padding than they play with now. The protection has grown by leaps and bounds
since Byron Donzis first came onto the scene in the 70's.

You are out of your mind if you think the injury claims will cause the NFL's status to
fall in the public eye. Jeez, look at the people who watch wrestling, boxing, full
contact fighting and mixed martial arts. They are looking for blood. The aggressive
and tough style of play is what a large majority of fans enjoy. If you don't like
it, you can certainly elect not to watch or support...but you will be in the extreme
minority.

Originally posted by quackquack
You don't see baseball or basketball players repeately comitting suicide at alarming rates. In fact you don't see kickers or quaterbacks committing suicide eiither. The difference is that they aren't spending 20 plus years leading with their heads.

Duerson post-mortem was certainly NOT inconclusive. He suffered just about every symptom known from ...[text shortened]... ers rate and and similar memory rate is 19X as large as the normal rate for men age 19-49.

Here's something for you to ponder. There are many, many more closed head injuries from automobile accidents than there ever were in football. The suicide rate among these people is not great. Hockey is more violent than football. Where's all the hockey suicides? All I'm saying is that one case or two does not a trend make. Further study, not by CNN, NYT or other non scientific entity will shed light on the matter, not empirical information or feelings based garbage. The very fact you don't see QB's committing suicide certainly negates what you, CNN and NYT posits given that fewer players suffer more concussions than QB's. Look at Aikman and Steve Young, both retired because of concussions. Your statement about football players committing suicide at alarming rates is wrong. Three that we know of, Duerson, Seau and some other older player. Where's this rash of suicides you mention? Please do not exaggerate! It is more likely for ex NFL players to engage in drug dealing than it is to commit suicide. Now there's something in need of investigations since that happens at a more alarming rate than suicide.

Of course all football players do not end up with depression. But the rate in the NFL is many multiples higher than those who do not have repeated head injuries. The NFl knew this and hid the facts from its employees. It is simply inconceivable that there will not be tremendous liability. If you think it is far fetched to think that high schools and other educators will stop sponsoring events like football which lead to head related injuries then you guys simply live on a different planet.

Here is some more interesting revelations coming out now regarding Chronic
Traumatic Encephalopathy (CTE) which is what they are calling this condition.

There are several factors that they are looking at that could be the cause or
a component of this condition.

Per Dr. Howard Derman, who heads up the Methodist Hospital Concussion Center,
"There is the possibility of specific genetic markers to CTE, a disease once associated
with boxers that manifests itself through serious memory loss, paranoia and
depression. If players are found to have these genetic markers, then they may be
precluded from playing football without signing a waiver release prior to playing. This
genetic marker hypothesis seems critical to the debate now swirling around Seau's
fatal choice."

He states further "Here's the big dilemma. People think athletes are no longer in the
limelight. They're no longer making the big bucks. That's why they're depressed, and
depressed people kill themselves. While, yes, that's a relatively true statement,
when you see inside the brains of athletes who have committed suicide, it's naive to
think CTE didn't play a role.

He goes on to say, "Why doesn't a Dick Butkus or a Sam Huff have problems?
Nobody ever hit harder than they did. Is it because of steroids or because the game
is so much faster, the players so much bigger today....due to steroid use? We don't
have the answer."

Greg Bingham, former MLB for the Houston Oilers, who suffered a near-fatal stroke
several years ago says he is certain the stroke was precipitated by damage incurred
during his 12 year career. Bingham believes "a complex set of circumstances leaves
some former players unable to process the psychological forces dragging them into
dark places, from where there is no return." He goes on to suggest that performance
enhancing drugs, steroids in particular, could be the X-factor. "There's no M.D. on the
back of my name, but it wouldn't surprise me, and you can quote me on this, if we
find out steroids do something to the brain, and they make it more difficult to think
logically to work your way through a problem. It's something we've got to be
honest about."

The statements above are direct quotes and are verifiable.

My thought, once again, is that outside factors are the primary nemesis here, and
playing the game may have been a contributing factor to damages sustained by
some player, but not the majority of players. As was brought out above, if
old studs like Butkus and Huff are exhibiting no symptoms, then it seems to suggest
that steroid use may have been a much bigger perpetrator in this condition due
to creating bigger, stronger, athletes creating more intensity in the hits...even though
advancements in the protective gear is much more superior to that worn by Butkus,
Huff and many others.

If anyone has seen Muhammed Ali lately, can you tell me with any certainty that his
current condition is solely cause by Parkinson's, or was Parkinson's brought on by
the large number of head trauma he sustained over the years in the boxing ring?

Hockey players sustain a huge amount of concussions, however, we have not seen
a rash of suicides from hockey players. If the cause was the concussions, than this
would not be the case.

Originally posted by quackquack
Of course all football players do not end up with depression. But the rate in the NFL is many multiples higher than those who do not have repeated head injuries. The NFl knew this and hid the facts from its employees. It is simply inconceivable that there will not be tremendous liability. If you think it is far fetched to think that high schools and ...[text shortened]... ke football which lead to head related injuries then you guys simply live on a different planet.

So how come boxers, whose brains are concussed repeatedly not committing suicide? Just because you say something is so does not make it so. Perhaps you need to read up more on the subject instead of buying into the usual BS of CNN and NYT! The fact is no one knows, plain and simple. CNN and NYT need to stop over-dramatizing and exaggerating things and stick to facts instead of feelings. You must be a tort lawyer or something and salivate at bringing down an entire industry on crap based BS like black fungus a few years back which was supposed to be the health hazard of the century!

Hockey players sustain a huge amount of concussions, however, we have not seen
a rash of suicides from hockey players. If the cause was the concussions, than this
would not be the case.[/b]

Enforcers in hockey have suffered tremendous memory loss and much of the dimensia and other things that would be expected of repeated head collisions. The New York Times won a pulitzer prize on a series that showed cases by case and the levels of mental damage to these people. Could each and evry case be a coincidence? Sure, tobacco companies spent many years making a similar argument that there was no connection between each and every person who smoked and died of lung cancer. But the level of mental injury numbers of people who had numerous concusions is so high the argument that your argument that it is a coincidence has become progressively more ridiculous.

Ali seems to have suffered tremendous memory loss. Of course it could have been unrelated but as we tally up all the suicides, depressions and memory loss and compare it to the general population it does become harder and harder to argue that repeated head impacts aren't causing permanent post career damage.

Originally posted by quackquack
Enforcers in hockey have suffered tremendous memory loss and much of the dimensia and other things that would be expected of repeated head collisions. The New York Times won a pulitzer prize on a series that showed cases by case and the levels of mental damage to these people. Could each and evry case be a coincidence? Sure, tobacco companies spent m ...[text shortened]... der and harder to argue that repeated head impacts aren't causing permanent post career damage.

Why do you continue to compare this to tobacco?
Deal with the facts as they are.

Read carefully what some "experts" stated.

As far as the hockey enforcers go...why aren't they committing suicide?
You keep talking about what they did to tone it down, but we should have seen some
suicides by now if your theory was correct.

Also address the boxers who have suffered more concussions than any of the athletes.
Why aren't they committing suicide?

Originally posted by shortcircuit
Why do you continue to compare this to tobacco?
Deal with the facts as they are.

Read carefully what some "experts" stated.

As far as the hockey enforcers go...why aren't they committing suicide?
You keep talking about what they did to tone it down, but we should have seen some
suicides by now if your theory was correct.

Also address the box ...[text shortened]... ave suffered more concussions than any of the athletes.
Why aren't they committing suicide?

The only effect of repeated concusions isn't suicide.

Originally posted by quackquack
The only effect of repeated concusions isn't suicide.

Well, then why don't we jump on bum knees and ankles, elbows, ribs and any other
body parts that were worn out and destroyed by professional sports.

You started out harping about the suicide being the end result of the concussions.

Now you are shifting gears on us?

I agree that repeated concussions have some long term effects, but so does the
pounding in the body joints. That is a part of the game for which the players are fairly
well compensated. Wouldn't you agree?

Originally posted by shortcircuit
Well, then why don't we jump on bum knees and ankles, elbows, ribs and any other
body parts that were worn out and destroyed by professional sports.

You started out harping about the suicide being the end result of the concussions.

Now you are shifting gears on us?

I agree that repeated concussions have some long term effects, but so does the ...[text shortened]... is a part of the game for which the players are fairly
well compensated. Wouldn't you agree?

Isn't funny how the subjects shifts as answers fail to emerge because it is all based on crap based CNN/NYT pseudoscience. We should all be grateful that such bozos have no control over NIH or CDC. In fact the suppress all science that fails to uphold their worldview. In a prior post above quackquack started on "global warming"! What GW has to do with concussions and suicides is beyond me, but obfuscation is the liberal way!

Originally posted by shortcircuit
Well, then why don't we jump on bum knees and ankles, elbows, ribs and any other
body parts that were worn out and destroyed by professional sports.

You started out harping about the suicide being the end result of the concussions.

Now you are shifting gears on us?

I agree that repeated concussions have some long term effects, but so does the ...[text shortened]... is a part of the game for which the players are fairly
well compensated. Wouldn't you agree?

No, I do not think athletes are made aware of the risks of concussion or compensated adequately for them. Honestly, their life completely sucks and there is no way I'd even be tempted to be a NFL player for even a second.

I just saw on outside the lines that Jim McMahon's has no short term memory. That based on his normal life experience that 10 minutes after an interview he will no longer remember it and that it is so bad his girl friend makes sure his home address is programmed in their GPS because they fear he will drive somewhere and forget where he lives. There is no doubt to me the cause. I'm not sure how many examples you need before the link is obvious to you. These aren't injuries that you give someone a hundred bucks and tell them to go home.

Originally posted by scacchipazzo
Isn't funny how the subjects shifts as answers fail to emerge because it is all based on crap based CNN/NYT pseudoscience. We should all be grateful that such bozos have no control over NIH or CDC. In fact the suppress all science that fails to uphold their worldview. In a prior post above quackquack started on "global warming"! What GW has to do with concussions and suicides is beyond me, but obfuscation is the liberal way!

Just like those who deny that global warming exists, you are deny the science and obvious effects of concussions and repeated head trauma. The NFL is changing its game all the time to try to adress this problem because even if you cannot comprehend its seriousness, the liability is obvious. It changes kick off rules, in the grasp rules, defenseless receiver rules to try to address the problem and the NFL will make more changes not because it adds to excitement (it doesn't) but because it knows that they will get smacked around in court if they don't.

NHL enforcers may not have committed suicide they simply die. In four months Wade Balek age 35 died. Derek Boogart age 28 had previously died. He had so many concussions he had not played for a few months. Rick Rypien age 27 had depression and was on personal leave. Professional athletes normally do not die at young ages. The same article noted that Bob Probert age 45 also recently died.

Originally posted by quackquack
No, I do not think athletes are made aware of the risks or compensated adequately for them. Honestly, their life completely sucks and there is no way I'd even be tempted to be a NFL player for even a second.

I just saw on outside the lines that Jim McMahon's has no short term memory. That based on his normal life experience that 10 minutes after an i ...[text shortened]... to me the cause. I'm not sure how many examples you need before the link is obvious to you.

I know several former NFL players. While they are all suffering from many of the same
pains in joints and back that I do from years of playing athletics, all of them have their
mental faculties. Joe Namath, Joe Montana, Steve Young, John Elway, Ron Jaworski,
Terry Bradshaw, Dan Marino, Roger Staubach, Bob Griese to name a few prominent
NFL QB's who are, or have been announcers, or members of football front offices. Roger
Staubach is a very prominent developer in Texas and has made a huge fortune AFTER
his NFL days were done. There are many more who are not facing the afflictions you
indicate, and they took all of the shots. Look at Joe Theisman. He had his leg crushed,
but he is still sharp as a tack. So was Don Meredith before he passed away from a heart
attack. There are plenty of linemen, running backs, receivers as well.

Try not to overlook precisely what I quoted in an earlier post. Let us also not forget
that Jim McMahon was a very hearty partier and drinker. Don't you believe there is
the slightest chance that that could have had an effect on his gray matter?

I got to run a bit with Kenny Stabler while he was with the Oilers. Now THAT guy
could party with the best of them. I have met Dan Pastorini on a number of
occasions. He is one of the toughest guys and hardest partiers you ever met. Both
of these guys are still plenty stable mentally, although their bodies are battered
through years of punishment.

The only former player that I know who has suffered any neurological damage is
Earl Campbell. I knew Earl when we were together in college for one year and
through his years as an Oiler. Earl took more punishment than anyone I ever saw
play. He also gave out a ton of punishment to those who tried to stop him. Isiah
Robertson's career was done after he tried to tackle Earl one on one. Earl is pretty
crippled now, and has had surgery to repair some neurological damage, but his
mental capacity is unaffected and he does not suffer depression even though I would
be depressed if my body was as battered as his.

So, you can go pick and choose a handful of players for your examples, but for
every one you can find, I'll find you 25 that are not afflicted.

I'll bet you have given no credence to the possibility that some of these players could
have developed conditions while the were playing in college. You seem to give no
weight to the X gene possibility in their make up which would predispose them to
the potential injury.

You argument doesn't hold water because every player, or even the majority of
players is afflicted. Sure, some are, and that is tragic. But let's get the facts straight
before we start condemning the entire system, game, or whatever.