Pushing the team to its limit...or abuse?

Originally posted by uzless
Every other animal on this planet uses a bit of violence to bring its kid into line

WRONG!

By the way, did you ever consider the implications of US being a different SPECIES from rabbits?

Originally posted by trev33
you can teach or punish a child without hitting them. i'm not saying parents should be passive i'm saying there's many, many other, better ways to enforce discipline and raise kids without resorting to stone-age brutality.

I have raised 4 so far. When you have raised one come back and talk to me.
I am not saying it is the only way to discipline either, but if corporal punishment is required to get the attention, then I am for it.

I went to a private high school where the teachers hit us with bare fists, wooden paddles, split baseball bats, pool cues, metal rulers, rubber hoses. While it took longer on some than others, they were able to get their point across about proper behavior.

Originally posted by shortcircuit
I went to a private high school where the teachers hit us with bare fists, wooden paddles, split baseball bats, pool cues, metal rulers, rubber hoses.

I'm glad the world is a lot less barbaric these days. 😕

Originally posted by Palynka
I'm glad the world is a lot less barbaric these days. 😕

Yep, now if we could just whip the world soccer fans into shape and stop all that fighting in the stands, the world will be a better place. 😛

Originally posted by shortcircuit
Yep, now if we could just whip the world soccer fans into shape and stop all that fighting in the stands, the world will be a better place. 😛

Definitely! 🙂 Violence and racism are a blight on soccer. I have the feeling both are slowly improving but a lot still needs to be done.

But what does this have to do with the price of sardines?

Originally posted by Palynka


But what does this have to do with the price of sardines?

We need to stop the endless capturing and canning of fish!! It is a barbaric action that leads only to pickling and eating them. What a cruel world we live in......

Originally posted by scacchipazzo
I diagree etirely with your contention about corporal punishment. You have obviously been steeped in the current culture of anything goes as long as it undermines tradition. Redefining everything as corporal punishment is silly. I have no objection to eliiminating ridicule as a form of teaching, just don't call ridiuling someone "corporal" which it is n ...[text shortened]... f human being and a blemish on an otherwise fine school! I think it took courage to can him!

You might believe that it is ok for teachers to hit kids to discipline. I don't. Schools have enough violence without teacher on student violence and teachers have enough to do without asking them to smack around kids. If students are really disobedient: fail them, arrest them, expel them, suspend them but no one has a right to assault another human being.
The above is my opinion. Certainly anyone can disagree. It is a fact that when I was a New York City teacher. Non-self defense physical contact with a student is ground for being fired. Similarly ridiculing student is considered corporal punishment and also would get you fired. Educational systems simply do not allow its employees to verbally or physically punish students.
Coaches, I believe, need to be careful becuase there is going to be less and less sympathy for actions that used to be accepted. It is not unreasonable for university employees to act professional and not ridicule student athletes for their failure to perform. I have no problem telling a player they made a mistake and working on correcting it or having a player lose playing time. But obviously hitting a player is uncalled for. So is excessive profanity based tirades directed at a player or forcing a player to do punishment activities.

Originally posted by shortcircuit
I have raised 4 so far. When you have raised one come back and talk to me.
I am not saying it is the only way to discipline either, but if corporal punishment is required to get the attention, then I am for it.

I went to a private high school where the teachers hit us with bare fists, wooden paddles, split baseball bats, pool cues, metal rulers, ru ...[text shortened]... took longer on some than others, they were able to get their point across about proper behavior.

I taught in a public school got my point across without hitting people. It certainly can be done and it certainly is a better way to do things.

Originally posted by shortcircuit
We need to stop the endless capturing and canning of fish!! It is a barbaric action that leads only to pickling and eating them. What a cruel world we live in......

Sh¡t happens.

Originally posted by quackquack
I taught in a public school got my point across without hitting people. It certainly can be done and it certainly is a better way to do things.

Maybe you never taught in a tough school or with kids who don't give a damn about what you are teaching. I am sure you did fine with your group in your way, I am merely pointing out that you live in a fishbowl if you believe all students/children can be controlled in a mellow manner. I have never seen you but I can tell you that if you are a small framed pacifist, they will bury you in many areas. I know some parents who "spared the rod" on their kids when they are young, and now their kids walk all over them...to the point of physical abuse. Gangs are only making matters worse. Guns and knives are common place. The next time a thug comes up to and points a gun at you, talk nicely to him and explain the errors of his way. I am sure that will save you from getting robbed, beaten or killed. In a fear based society, the way to control is with fear.
Sorry, but that is the way it is...really!!

Getting back on topic though, too many people are missing the boat on this Leach deal.
This wasn't physical punishment...it was mental punishment. It was not severe either.
I know Craig James, actually grew up with him. His kid is a prima donna, but a good player. If his dad wasn't Craig James, he would have been dropped from the team more than likely.

When I played in college sports, my idea of cruel treatment was when the coaches would run us until we puked our guts out. Then they would run you again. This was discipline without hitting. It also got the point across. Leach has an ego and he pissed off some people with equally big egos. Texas Tech got caught in the middle of a litigious society and cut their losses....possibly. I will guarantee you there are worse hazing incidents in fraternities than there are in athletics. Granted, they are trying to clean up frat houses too.

Originally posted by quackquack
You might believe that it is ok for teachers to hit kids to discipline. I don't. Schools have enough violence without teacher on student violence and teachers have enough to do without asking them to smack around kids. If students are really disobedient: fail them, arrest them, expel them, suspend them but no one has a right to assault another human be ...[text shortened]... e profanity based tirades directed at a player or forcing a player to do punishment activities.

But where do we draw the line? Can't someone argue that expelling a student or failing a
student is psychological assault. Can't it be more harmful to certain students to be expelled
then it would be to swat them with a ruler or paddle?

When I was a grade-school student around 13 or 14 yrs old I had the option of choosing to get
5-10 swats with a paddle or being suspended from class for 1 day. I choose the swats -
because they were in private and no one else would ever know about it. If a kid was
suspended from school everyone knew about it and made a big deal about it. Suspension or
expulsion was much more stressful, in my opinion, to deal with because of the public
humiliation. And maybe it would have had longer lasting effects. The point is -- both options
got the point across that I had to change my behavior. And personally, the physical pain of a
swat was less harmful to me than the other option.

So I don't agree that you can universally say that verbal or physical punishment is wrong.
And I wonder if even talking about it as right vs. wrong is part of the problem. Shouldn't we
be talking about what's better or worse? Don't we all at least agree that individuals react
differently (for better or worse) to different forms of punishment?

Originally posted by shortcircuit
Getting back on topic though, too many people are missing the boat on this Leach deal.
This wasn't physical punishment...it was mental punishment. It was not severe either.
I know Craig James, actually grew up with him. His kid is a prima donna, but a good player. If his dad wasn't Craig James, he would have been dropped from the team more than likely ...[text shortened]... raternities than there are in athletics. Granted, they are trying to clean up frat houses too.

I agree with you on this one. It was not a severe punishment. Would it suck to have to sit the
rest of practice in the equipment shed or the media room? Sure. But isn't that the point of
"punishment"?

The issue with Leach being fired is bigger than this player's complaint.

Originally posted by shortcircuit
Maybe you never taught in a tough school or with kids who don't give a damn about what you are teaching. I am sure you did fine with your group in your way, I am merely pointing out that you live in a fishbowl if you believe all students/children can be controlled in a mellow manner. I have never seen you but I can tell you that if you are a small frame based society, the way to control is with fear.
Sorry, but that is the way it is...really!!

I never said anything about not using weapons to stop muggings. I simply feel that parents should be able to control their kids without hitting them. I mean you can stop giving them priveleges, freedoms, allowances, you can take away their possessions, you can even talk and reason with them. My experience is that this can be very effective.
I taught in a New York City public school. I believe that I had pleanty of technique for discipline. I think private schools have an advantage becuase they can expel kids but I do not think permitting teachers to hit students would be an improvement and I certainly would not want my kids to be subjected to physical abuse by anyone (teachers included).

Originally posted by Palynka
WRONG!

By the way, did you ever consider the implications of US being a different SPECIES from rabbits?

we're all animals...species are irrelevant.

You name me some higher order animals that don't use violence and i'll give you 10 for everyone you can name.