1. Standard memberTirau Dan
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    18 Feb '09 19:28
    The indigenous Maori ppl in NZ have tribal rites and identities protected in law. The NZ Legal system recognises Maori as the indigenous people and demands consultation and partnership in everything. It's the only correct and right way.. Maori have had their own proud regiments in wartime and have long had their own sports teams which tour the world and have been well received everywhere. They share NZ with people from all over the world but because they no longer have a Nation as a ppl they are often accused of being racist when Maori teams are selected.. In sporting terms Maoridom should be recognised in sport as a nation. Unlike many tribal races they collectively have long traditions in sport to back themselves. Not accepting this is like telling the Welsh they can't play together on racial grounds - ridiculous.

    The best game of the last Lions tour of NZ was the Maori Lions game in Hamilton.. I was there to watch the NZ Maori defeat "The British and Irish Lions" for the first time. I'm English by birth but was a proud kiwi that night and was even more proud of our NZ Maori kinship that night.

    Does the issue raise questions at Olympic time? Why is Britain one country for one event and separate countries for others? Doesn't a country have to have exclusive sovereignty?

    (Story from NZ City News)

    " The Springboks' planned British and Irish Lions warm-up against the New Zealand Maori is likely to be snubbed by South African Rugby because of the racial composition of the squad.


    The South African Rugby Union has confirmed it has had an approach from the NZRU for the Maori to play a game in the Republic in June. But SARU has issued a statement saying the biggest stumbling block is the long established President?s Council resolution forbidding the appearance of SARU teams against opponents selected on racial lines.

    It is ironic considering South Africa's apartheid past and also the government's insistence on the set number of non-white players required for the Springbok team. "

    It does appear that SA will make an exception.. it annoys me that they presume to have that right.

    Look at this in terms of your own nationhood: To be Maori (as opposed to English or any other ppl) you have to know which tribe you come from and most know which canoe their family arrived in NZ that means basically knowing your ancestry (Whakapapa) for 24-27 generations back to 1300ad) Maybe we should apply something like this to sport or nationhood, could we all have passports issued according to our ancestry and look at citizenship separately?

    NZ is a partnership of Maori who came in 1300-1400 and those who came later. I believe the answer is to acknowledge Maori as a unique nation - identity and Whakapapa is everything to them and they deserve the acknowledgement.
  2. Standard memberCrowley
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    18 Feb '09 19:561 edit
    It does appear that SA will make an exception.. it annoys me that they presume to have that right.

    What do you mean? In the apartheid years only white people could play, so the stance of not playing teams selected on racial grounds does make sense, don't you think?
    Surely you can understand the line of thinking behind the hard line of "never will we make the same mistakes as our predecessors."

    Also, officially we don't have actual quotas for team demographic - we have transformation targets.


    The whole thing is a little silly to me and I think it's just posturing by bureaucrats trying to show everyone "Who's the boss" with a little World Champions arrogance thrown in...
    Is this even in the SARU constitution?
  3. Standard memberTirau Dan
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    19 Feb '09 04:24
    Originally posted by Crowley
    It does appear that SA will make an exception.. it annoys me that they presume to have that right.

    What do you mean? In the apartheid years only white people could play, so the stance of not playing teams selected on racial grounds does make sense, don't you think?
    Surely you can understand the line of thinking behind the hard line of "never will ...[text shortened]... a little World Champions arrogance thrown in...
    Is this even in the SARU constitution?
    The Maori's are and always will be a special case. It's not a race thing here it's about legal sovereignty and nationhood.

    Our political system gives Maori this country, they are an accepted legal partner in the sovereignty of NZ. In fact they should have higher legal status than that of the Principality of Wales as Maori have a King.

    Maori have part ownership of NZ and a partnership in Govt that gives them the right to nationhood and to represent Maori in sport.

    They never went to reservations, homeland reserves and were never declared a conquered race following the Maori land wars.. they didn't lose NZ so what gives anyone the right to declare their team racist selected.

    You have to be Welsh to play for Wales. S/A to play for S/A and Maori to play for Maori.

    If the indigenous people of other countries kept the cultural integrity that the Maori have managed over the years then they too should have the right to play as a people even if immigrants have taken over government of their country.

    I'd love to watch a Maori v Zulu rugby game.. I really think it would be marvellous or perhaps a Zulu v England Soccer game. Any reason why not?

    If you (meaning anyone) won't play Maori then don't play Wales or Scotland or Northern Ireland because they are not independent sovereign countries so must have been picked on racial grounds?

    (Also because of the particular legal partnership between Maori and Pakeha in NZ they are equally allowed to play to integrated NZ teams as do the Welsh and Scottish when playing for the Lions. In this day and age players change nationality to suit who pays the most if they happen to have a distant relly from another country.

    I must add that many non-Maori NZ'ers are totally opposed to the partnership and dislike The Maori's playing as a national team. Ask why and they say because it's racist... it isn't racist to want to stay as a people and protect your heritage. The country is theirs, they share it with we who have come along later to live here.

    Perhaps Maori should also be accepted into the Olympics? No they aren't just as Wales and Scotland etc aren't.
  4. Standard memberCrowley
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    19 Feb '09 12:55
    Originally posted by Tirau Dan
    If you (meaning anyone) won't play Maori then don't play Wales or Scotland or Northern Ireland because they are not independent sovereign countries so must have been picked on racial grounds?
    No, I don't think we're talking about the same 'racial' lines here.
    A welsh team might have some white, some black and even the odd guy from 'Eastern' or 'Indian' ancestry.

    I believe this is what it's about. The Maori are a single race, not a single nationality.
    Know what I mean? Are there any people from European ancestry that are considered Maori?

    But like I said, it seems a little silly and stupid from SARU...
  5. Standard memberTirau Dan
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    19 Feb '09 19:39
    Originally posted by Crowley
    No, I don't think we're talking about the same 'racial' lines here.
    A welsh team might have some white, some black and even the odd guy from 'Eastern' or 'Indian' ancestry.

    I believe this is what it's about. The Maori are a single race, not a single nationality.
    Know what I mean? Are there any people from European ancestry that are considered Maori?

    But like I said, it seems a little silly and stupid from SARU...
    There are many Maori today with Euro ancestry and their are many white Maori too.. try and tell All Blacks like Ian Jones and Carlos Spencer they played for a racist team.

    You can be Maori if you have a relative in you that was on the canoes that arrived in the 1300-1400s in NZ. Same as many NZers tracing back to the boats they arrived on the 1860-early 1900s tracing family back to Scotland. Maori have never proven where they came from prior to 1300 most think Hawaii but some are now saying China.

    You have to be Scottish to play for Scotland. You have to be Maori to play for The Maoris. They are a nation.

    This is a debate shared in this country. A TV poll here last night found 70% of callers wanted The Maori Team abolished. That to me is a racist disgrace. Lots here hate the Maori not me Kia Ka Ha te mana te Maori

    Settlers from Europe have suppressed and destroyed the nationhood of resident people all over the world. NZ was one of the newest countries to be settled. The Maori warred long and hard over their lands and were never defeated.. and the settlers came to live here under treaty with the crown in legal partnership. NZ Passports are written in Maori with the country name Aotearoa on them.

    I do believe it's up to NZ and The Crown to sort the issue not SA or anyone else.
  6. Standard memberCrowley
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    20 Feb '09 05:55
    Originally posted by Tirau Dan
    I do believe it's up to NZ and The Crown to sort the issue not SA or anyone else.
    What? OK, help me right here if I have this wrong.
    A Maori is not 'white' or caucasian, am I right? They are a certain race, not a nationality?
    Sure, you say they are in a NZ perspective, but they are not a sovereign nation, right?

    So SARU, by definition, is doing the right thing, because the Maori only allow Maori to play.
  7. Standard memberTirau Dan
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    20 Feb '09 09:47
    Originally posted by Crowley
    What? OK, help me right here if I have this wrong.
    A Maori is not 'white' or caucasian, am I right? They are a certain race, not a nationality?
    Sure, you say they are in a NZ perspective, but they are not a sovereign nation, right?

    So SARU, by definition, is doing the right thing, because the Maori only allow Maori to play.
    Maori have shared nationality in exactly the same way at wales scotland Nth ireland are part of the country of Gt Britain except they share the whole thing. It is an internal debate as many here disagree with this argument.

    Follow your argument and you disqualify Wales Scotland and Nth Ireland as they are not sovereign nations.

    Do the SARU pick the SA team with a certain black and coloured quota in it?

    If so surely they totally and utterly disqualify themselves from making racist claims against the Maori. If the answer is yes they do have a coloured quota maybe it's time for the IRB to ban SA?

    There is no colour quota in The Maori team at all.
  8. Standard memberRagnorak
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    20 Feb '09 10:29
    Originally posted by Crowley
    What? OK, help me right here if I have this wrong.
    A Maori is not 'white' or caucasian, am I right? They are a certain race, not a nationality?
    Mauri can be white. We met an alcoholic Mauri in NZ who was half Irish.

    He still called himself Mauri and spoke about his whakapapa.

    We met Mauri who looked more Greek than Mauri.

    D
  9. Standard memberCrowley
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    21 Feb '09 01:07
    Originally posted by Ragnorak
    Mauri can be white. We met an alcoholic Mauri in NZ who was half Irish.

    He still called himself Mauri and spoke about his whakapapa.

    We met Mauri who looked more Greek than Mauri.

    D
    Cheers Rag. Getting a straight answer from Dan is like trying to kick a snake on the ass.
  10. Standard memberCrowley
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    21 Feb '09 01:12
    Originally posted by Tirau Dan
    Maori have shared nationality in exactly the same way at wales scotland Nth ireland are part of the country of Gt Britain except they share the whole thing. It is an internal debate as many here disagree with this argument.

    Follow your argument and you disqualify Wales Scotland and Nth Ireland as they are not sovereign nations.

    Do the SARU pick the S ...[text shortened]... a maybe it's time for the IRB to ban SA?

    There is no colour quota in The Maori team at all.
    Wales, etc. are geographic locations that include people from more than one race.
    Must you just home in on one phrase I accidentally use in the wrong context?

    SARU officially has no quotas, only transformation targets.
  11. Standard memberTirau Dan
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    21 Feb '09 06:51
    Originally posted by Crowley
    Wales, etc. are geographic locations that include people from more than one race.
    Must you just home in on one phrase I accidentally use in the wrong context?

    SARU officially has no quotas, only transformation targets.
    It's difficult to answer straight as it's a curved situation. I'm trying to make it clear for you but I'm likely to get points of NZ history wrong and stand to be firmly corrected so I apologise in advance..

    Maori settled NZ 1300-1400ad. The land was known as Aotearoa (The Land of The Long White Cloud). When Europeans settled later a treaty was signed which guaranteed Maoris sovereignty over their lands in return for rights as British citizens too.

    Maori did not have any concept of property ownership at all. they caused problems and fell fould of a fair bit of abuse as a result.
    It was only when they wee harshly treated and sacred tribal places were abused that they fought the early settlers.

    Their were two versions one in Maori and One in English. In the last 30 or so years NZ has acknowledge the wrong done to Maori by incorrectly using the poorly translated English version. A special court was created to settle grievances under the treaty.

    The biggest misinterpretation related to the meaning of "Tino Rangatiratanga" which in Maori is chieftain ship over all things Maori.

    Maori in Law are co-owners of NZ so have NZ's boundaries.. it's their land. Many in this land and oversea don't understand the concept of the partnership but if you ask any Maori they'll explain it better than I but understand one thing.. Maori consider NZ home and they share it with the rest of us.

    By saying Maori own NZ I'm taking the extreme side of the argument. I know that legally they don't but in my view the very very least we can do to acknowledge the partnership we currently hold with Maori is to allow them Nationhood for the purpose of sport.

    As far as I know it's a unique case which must be settled in NZ.

    I understand what you say about Wales the country but you are deliberately ignoring what I've said about sovereignty of Wales and the fact that you have to of the Welsh race to play for Wales. They are a British rules puppet country Maori have a much bigger role in the govt of this country.

    Most of us love having Maori guide us on "The Maori Way" and in things Maori. They'll never get full sovereignty and as such may well continue to be excluded from sporting contests (which has been the case for years).

    The race issue to me only exists to suppress people who have had lands taken away from them by modern settlers. If you want to apply a rule of one team per government fine but now you say a a country is an area of land.. but what about Govt?
    This hasn't applied to Wales Scotland and Nth Ireland they are part of Britain .. why isn't Britain told to have one sports team?

    I wish I knew my race the way Maori know their Whakapapa. My Nationality is NZ, my race is European I'm envious of ppl that can trace there heritage to pagan roots etc.. Brilliant. I can get back to the 1700s but would love to go back 500 years or more like most Maori.

    When you deny a people the mere right to play as a national team I would hope you'd at least do the right thing by delving into the history and deeper feelings of the matter.

    I can't honestly explain this better. It's okay to disagree but to do so please understand the Maori perspective first if you don't then dig into wiki etc .. enjoy.
  12. Standard memberCrowley
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    21 Feb '09 12:06
    Originally posted by Tirau Dan
    It's difficult to answer straight as it's a curved situation. I'm trying to make it clear for you but I'm likely to get points of NZ history wrong and stand to be firmly corrected so I apologise in advance..

    Maori settled NZ 1300-1400ad. The land was known as Aotearoa (The Land of The Long White Cloud). When Europeans settled later a treaty was signed w ...[text shortened]... he Maori perspective first if you don't then dig into wiki etc .. enjoy.
    There is no such thing as the 'Welsh race' as far as I know.

    Look, Dan, I'm not disagreeing with you.

    I think SARU are silly and already said so too.
    But, they have it in their constitution not to play teams based on purely a racial basis, which I believe the Maori are.
    Considering our history, surely you can understand why this is in there, right?
  13. Standard memberTirau Dan
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    21 Feb '09 23:49
    Originally posted by Crowley
    There is no such thing as the 'Welsh race' as far as I know.

    Look, Dan, I'm not disagreeing with you.

    I think SARU are silly and already said so too.
    But, they have it in their constitution not to play teams based on purely a racial basis, which I believe the Maori are.
    Considering our history, surely you can understand why this is in there, right?
    I understand where you stand but just ask that Maori be allowed to play as a nation.

    As far as the SARu are concerned They have been asked about their selection policy and the reply is that

    "SARU is not denying reports that the first Springbok team of 2008 will have to have at least 10 nonwhites in the starting team"

    If that's the case you guys can't play either.
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    23 Feb '09 19:40
    with the british teams legally any holder of a british passport can play for any of the home nations. There is only a gentleman's agreement that selected players should have a connection to the country for which they are selected (usually at least a grandparent that was resident)

    the reason why there are home nation teams playing at international level is because they are british sports and 'internationals' started between them before the games were played elsewhere. In other sports and the olympics it is team GB

    if a british or english team was selected from only those who could trace their ancestry to the Doomsday book, then i think that could be considered racist unless created for novelty value and not as a representation of the country. What you are suggesting with the maori seems to me to be like saying it would be ok to have thoroughbred white team representing england/scotland/wales/NI and another team which could (but not necessarily) include later arrivals competing in the same competitions. Sounds like the BNPs dream when put like that.
  15. Standard memberCrowley
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    23 Feb '09 21:37
    Originally posted by Tirau Dan
    I understand where you stand but just ask that Maori be allowed to play as a nation.

    As far as the SARu are concerned They have been asked about their selection policy and the reply is that

    "SARU is not denying reports that the first Springbok team of 2008 will have to have at least 10 nonwhites in the starting team"

    If that's the case you guys can't play either.
    Don't you worry about politicians putting their noses where it doesn't belong... We will have as many black players as there are black players who are the relative best in their positions.
    The SA public demands results, not transformation. Politicians demand only transformation...

    I understand the Maori 'situation' better now.
    This has highlighted the fact that SARU are a bunch of useless bureaucratic apes. We knew it all along - now the whole rugby world knows it too...
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