The Cincinnati Reds

Originally posted by whodey
As far as Patterson goes, he may have started him only 80 some games but it seemed as though he found himself in the game much more often. He even pinch hit for a few people even though his average was abysmal for players with better averages. I don't care much about past performance with Griffey as a prime example, so Pattersons glory years can be enjoyed ...[text shortened]... l established players than he is developing new talent. As for the Reds, it is ALL new talent.

Most good managers don't panic when established players go into slumps (they all do). Patterson was only 29 years old last year, so it probably seemed reasonable that he would snap out of it. And again, there didn't seem like a lot of other options after Griffey was dealt.

Dusty was in the World Series as the manager of a wild card team as recently as 2002. I don't think he's forgotten how to manage in 6 years. But if he doesn't get the job done i.e. get the Reds over .500 with the young talent they have this year, then by all means they should get somebody else.

EDIT: The Cubs won 67 games in 2002. Dusty took over in 2003 and they won 88 games and the division.

Originally posted by no1marauder
Most good managers don't panic when established players go into slumps (they all do). Patterson was only 29 years old last year, so it probably seemed reasonable that he would snap out of it. And again, there didn't seem like a lot of other options after Griffey was dealt.

Dusty was in the World Series as the manager of a wild card team ...[text shortened]... Cubs won 67 games in 2002. Dusty took over in 2003 and they won 88 games and the division.

There are significant roster differences between those two years:

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/teamstats/roster.php?y=2002&t=CHN

and

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/teamstats/roster.php?y=2003&t=CHN

I can't believe Delino Deshields was on the roster. They must have had a AARP sponsership.

Dusty is not a savior by any means.

Originally posted by PocketKings
There are significant roster differences between those two years:

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/teamstats/roster.php?y=2002&t=CHN

and

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/teamstats/roster.php?y=2003&t=CHN

I can't believe Delino Deshields was on the roster. They must have had a AARP sponsership.

Dusty is not a savior by any means.

I didn't say he was, but whodey claimed "he didn't do much in Chicago". As I recall, the Cubs were a few outs away from the World Series.

Originally posted by no1marauder
Does anyone think that my new favorite baseball team, the Cincinnati Reds, will contend for a playoff spot this year?

I'm not much of a baseball fan, but I like the Reds. They are a rather small market team, that has had sussess against the larger market teams. Go Reds!😏

Originally posted by no1marauder
I didn't say he was, but whodey claimed "he didn't do much in Chicago". As I recall, the Cubs were a few outs away from the World Series.

If you ask a Cubs fan about Crusty they will say they don't care for him. Do you know of any that care for him as a manager? You must then ask yourself why. A few Cubs fans I have talked to say he simply does not know how to handle his pitchers the way he ought. He was accused of ruining the arms of his pitchers by not paying attention to pitching counts or moving them ahead in the rotation. As for last year, I recall an overtime game the Reds played with San Diego in which he used his ace Harang as a relief pitcher right before another start. After that, it seemed as though he tail spinned into a slump and has not been right since.

Of course, you may say that the Cubs don't care for him because he never took them to a world series, however, neither has Sweet Lou yet they seem to love the man. I know I did when he was in Cincinnati.

Originally posted by bill718
I'm not much of a baseball fan, but I like the Reds. They are a rather small market team, that has had sussess against the larger market teams. Go Reds!😏

Success? Not since the 80's.

With 162 games in the season, it's hard to talk about players, slumps, hot streaks, etc. Out of the NL Central, I think the Cards have been the most successful recently, but out of the huge division, and the morass of Astros, Brewers, Cubs, Reds.. it comes out boring..

Now, the NL East! Much more interesting!

Originally posted by whodey
As for last year, I recall an overtime game the Reds played with San Diego in which he used his ace Harang as a relief pitcher right before another start. After that, it seemed as though he tail spinned into a slump and has not been right since.

Of course, you may say that the Cubs don't care for him because he never took them to a world series, however, neither has Sweet Lou yet they seem to love the man. I know I did when he was in Cincinnati.

Are you a huge fan of the game? It doesn't appear that your knowledge of the game is that stellar because there are several points you appear to be missing. First, they don't have overtime in baseball, they have extra innings.

Second, I will bet you that the extra inning game occurred exactly two days prior to Aaron Harang's next start, and the appearance was an inning or so. This practice is very typical when a bullpen is overworked. In fact, they prepare for it. You see, a starting pitcher will throw a "bullpen session" two days prior to his start. When the manager knows his bullpen has been overworked, he will often have his pitcher delay his bullpen session until late in the game to see if he will need to use him. More than likely, this happened with Harang. Now, perhaps his best option was to have a non-pitcher pitch to save Harng's bullpen session. Or maybe he should have just forfeited the game, or else thrown one of the overworked members of the bullpen. The manager is trying to scratch out wins where he can. If the game had been a blowout either way, Harang would not have been used.

Third, Aaron Harang has never been accused of being the staff ace, and certainly not last year. He has excellent stuff, but his command tends to be erratic. Harang's tailspin at the end of the season was not caused by one inning of work in one game. I am unaware of any physical damage to his arm, shoulder, back or legs that occured that required surgery last season.

Now, as far as Lou Piniella goes, if he is the great manager you say he must be, how many championships did he lead the Reds to, and why did he leave Cincy? Lou and Dusty are both 'old school" managers. Neither is known for coddling players, especially the kids. Neither is known for being developers of youth talent. Lou had the same contingent of talent in Tampa as Joe Madden did. Why did the team blossom under Madden, but not under Piniella? For a reasonably established club, Piniella and Baker are both excellent managers. Neither one is a tactician on par with Tony LaRussa who always seems to get more out of his players than any other manager in baseball.

Originally posted by shortcircuit
Are you a huge fan of the game? It doesn't appear that your knowledge of the game is that stellar because there are several points you appear to be missing. First, they don't have overtime in baseball, they have extra innings.

Second, I will bet you that the extra inning game occurred exactly two days prior to Aaron Harang's next start, and the appe ...[text shortened]... ssa who always seems to get more out of his players than any other manager in baseball.

Well, let's get the facts straight. The game alluded to is this one: http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/gameday/index.jsp?gid=2008_05_25_cinmlb_sdnmlb_1&mode=wrap#boxscore

It was played on May 25th and Harang had started on the 22nd, so it was his throw day. But Harang pitched 4 innings from the 13 - 16th (very well; scoreless with 9 Ks). Dusty had already used 8 pitchers and his bullpen had blown 3 leads from the 8th inning on. An 18th inning game in the NL is tough on pitchers and managers for sure; you have to pinch hit in extra innings but you're likely to use up your pen. It's not unheard of for starters to be used in such situations.

Harang was definitely the staff ace in 2006 and 2007 when he won 16 games in each. In fact in 2006 he tied for the league lead in wins and led the league in K's and complete games. In 2007, he had another strong year and finished 4th in the NL Cy Young voting.

Harang going into the May 25th game was 2-5 with a 3.50 ERA. For whatever reason, he pitched very badly from then until September and was also hurt virtually all July. Was this because of one relief outing? It seems doubtful; Harang had a relief appearance in 2006 and it didn't wreck his season. Perhaps it didn't help though; who knows?

I see no reason to trash the manager before the season starts. Last year was a transitional year with a lot of rookies and much couldn't be expected of Dusty. This year the team has made moves which look to have definitely improved the squad and Votto, Bruce and a few others have seasons under their belt. Anything under .500 will be a disappointment and probably cost Baker his job.

Originally posted by no1marauder
Anything under .500 will be a disappointment and probably cost Baker his job.[/b]

SHOULD cost Crusty his job.

Originally posted by shortcircuit
First, they don't have overtime in baseball, they have extra innings.

😳

Come on man, you know what I mean. Give me a break, I just came out of my college football funk.

Originally posted by shortcircuit
[
Now, as far as Lou Piniella goes, if he is the great manager you say he must be, how many championships did he lead the Reds to, and why did he leave Cincy? Lou and Dusty are both 'old school" managers. Neither is known for coddling players, especially the kids. Neither is known for being developers of youth talent. Lou had the same contingent of talent ...[text shortened]... ny LaRussa who always seems to get more out of his players than any other manager in baseball.[/b]

You make some valid points here, however, Lou DID lead the Reds to a world championship. That may not impress you but do you know how many world championships the Reds have won minus the Big Red Machine? Not many, thats how many. As a result, Reds fans have a sweet spot for sweet Lou. Granted, you make some valid points about his performance in Tampa, but I still would favor him over Crusty and the average Cubs fan would as well.

Who bats second in this lineup behind Tavares? They look like they have a lot of free swingers and you need someone who can handle the bat behind in the count if they're going to let Taveras run wild as planned. Is Phillips the logical choice?

Originally posted by no1marauder
Who bats second in this lineup behind Tavares? They look like they have a lot of free swingers and you need someone who can handle the bat behind in the count if they're going to let Taveras run wild as planned. Is Phillips the logical choice?

The biggest problem you have with Tavares, and I saw quite a lot of him, he hasn't figured out how to steal first base yet. Once he gets to first, he is hell on wheels. Can he ever learn to be a slap hitter and not try and be a line drive gap hitter, which he is not? This is the question that needs to be answered.

Originally posted by no1marauder
Well, let's get the facts straight. The game alluded to is this one: http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/gameday/index.jsp?gid=2008_05_25_cinmlb_sdnmlb_1&mode=wrap#boxscore

It was played on May 25th and Harang had started on the 22nd, so it was his throw day. But Harang pitched 4 innings from the 13 - 16th (very well; scoreless with 9 Ks). Dusty had a ...[text shortened]... their belt. Anything under .500 will be a disappointment and probably cost Baker his job.

Thanks for the tip on which game it was. Adter seeing what he already had used up, it appears he had no other choice but to pitch him and hope the Reds could score. Pitching 4 innings with that many K's might have stretched him out some, but I am sure his turn was pushed back after the outing in question. I also noticed who came in after Harang and there was no mention of Volquez in the statement. I am not sure what he should have done...tossed in the towel and saved his starters? You are an old schooler. I am sure you remember when pitchers threw EVERY 4th day and threw an average of 8 innings per outing? Some of the top flight pitchers wouldn't be lifted without a crowbar in hand. They played the same length of season with only one difference....no big contracts and no free agency. How is it that the players of today are more frequently hurt, don't have the same stamina, and for the most part, don't have the guts of the players of the past? I realize the evolution of the closer and of the expanded bullpen and the specialty pitcher. However, it would seem that the luxury of carrying a situation lefty,, or a one or two batter go to guy, have taken a toll on manager's pitching options when a game like this one happens. Wouldn't you agree?