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Clans Forum

Clans Forum

  1. 01 Nov '16 14:20
    manipulation, collusion, and counter collusion are a matter of fact

    clan play has become more difficult and less fun

    there's a need for this forum


    i cannot moderate, but i will try to keep things moving in a positive direction


    two bits of light humor to begin

    'a camel is a horse designed by a committee'

    ...and trying to get the clan leaders on this site to agree is 'like herding cats'


    please don't criticize each other

    the system needs help

    ideas have been put forward

    we're here to test their merit, to refine and maybe adopt what is most useful


    if we ask for reform, we'll most likely to get results if...

    the change is simple, feasible, and does not require a large effort on the part of the site

    once implemented, it does not require excessive maintenance on the part of the administrators

    the sense of the change is self evident, and all or most of us agree on it


    what follows is a list of suggestions from the previous thread

    the most common have been floated to the top


    i tried to combine and condense, without changing intent or meaning

    the '(or,' device has been used when clan leaders had different views on the same issue

    if i missed the gist, please correct me, and know that it was not done out of personal bias


    that being said ...here they are


    clan individual ratings should be uncoupled from RHP non-clan individual ratings, ELO is proposed as a respected and useful rating system

    X number of clan games should be played with a provisional rating to ascertain a clan player's true strength, these initial matches do not count

    no draws or resignations will be permitted until 30 moves have been made (or, permit no clan games to be resigned)

    clan players that have not moved for 30 days will become unavailable for challenges

    set a maximum rating differential of X between clan challenge opponents (currently 200 points, 100 points also proposed) (or, let this be at the clan leader's discretion)

    each player should only be allowed to play for one clan (or, do not permit challenge against a clan where the other leader is also a member of their clan)

    hide the results of a clan challenges until the match is complete

    points for winning a challenge are allocated as is currently done (or, winner takes it all, for any drawn challenge each team gets 0 points)

    clans should have a minimum requirement of X players, and are not permitted to issue challenge unless the requirement is met

    a site referee, or a committee of proven clan leaders, should be set up to review clan play and place appropriate bans and cautions

    set a point limit, so no clan can run away with the totals

    prevent clans from starting challenges if they are rated X over the challenged clan

    set a maximum number of challenges between clans involving the same players (currently this is 3)

    score clan performance on net average rating change, this will give smaller clans, or slower clans, a measure of equality

    members of the winning clan at the end of the year receive a free subscription when their next renewal is due


    15 talking points

    discussion on these and more are welcome


    start where you like


    it might be most productive to deliberate on one point per post


    peace
    ~leo
  2. 01 Nov '16 15:26
    I do not see anything I can agree with and will wait for a more sensible suggestion or for the insulters to make this Forum go the same way all others do
  3. Subscriber Very Rusty
    Treat Everyone Equal
    01 Nov '16 16:53
    Originally posted by padger
    I do not see anything I can agree with and will wait for a more sensible suggestion or for the insulters to make this Forum go the same way all others do
    Padger,
    I didn't notice anyone ask you to be on the committee if one were to be formed. I think with the right Clan Leaders on the committee that change is possible. This is not to say if you were on it, you couldn't make a positive contribution. I am sure you have many good ideas to share.

    Regards,
    -VR
  4. 01 Nov '16 17:16
    Originally posted by Very Rusty
    Padger,
    I didn't notice anyone ask you to be on the committee if one were to be formed. I think with the right Clan Leaders on the committee that change is possible. This is not to say if you were on it, you couldn't make a positive contribution. I am sure you have many good ideas to share.

    Regards,
    -VR
    If the Clan leaders really wanted change they would soon sort things out
    All they really want is more of the same
    The points awarded situation is rubbish
    The clan collusion is rubbish
    The only positive thing to change since I joined this site is the 200 points difference rule
    Which I would change to 100
    As I said before the most active clans are rewarded not the best clans
    I haven't been asked to be on the clan committee
    Has anyone been officially asked to be on it ?
  5. Subscriber Ragwort
    Ex Duris Gloria
    01 Nov '16 17:41 / 1 edit
    A couple of observations on the debate so far:

    With regard to ratings:

    The RHP rating reflects the performance across the whole site so creating a clan rating strikes me as over burdensome. It would have one immediately bigger problem which is that any new clan rating will be provisional for a period and would lead confusion until the rating was established. Personally I think a rating floor of 200 points below 5 year maximum would be more effective and probably easier to code.

    I don't know but I doubt that coding to identify and prohibit clan collusion is going to be easily achievable and thus I reckon the idea of a clan challenge moderator or referee has merit. I think that such a person should NOT be a clan member so as to remain impartial. They should have a clear terms of reference and the power to nullify any challenge where the points have clearly been obtained outside the generally accepted cut and thrust of challenge setting. They should have sufficient chess knowledge to be able to identify games that have been thrown for collusion purposes, and perhaps powers to recommend more serious sanctions to Russ in the event of total anarchy.

    In the Help : clans Russ has explained the challenge process in broad brush terms. Although not stated overtly it implies to me a certain "buyer beware" aspect for clan leaders accepting challenges. I don't believe this aspect of the clan challenge set up should be entirely programmed out any more than I believe clans whose only priority is to provide games to its membership from similar strength opponents should be hamstrung by the system either.
  6. 01 Nov '16 19:22
    I fear the other thread will just turn out the same way.

    A couple more safeguards in would be appreciated - whatever you do there will always be someone unhappy.

    However, there are a couple of decent points and if it gets some people being more civilised than that is a decent start

    I applaud your efforts
  7. Subscriber Very Rusty
    Treat Everyone Equal
    01 Nov '16 19:42
    Originally posted by padger
    If the Clan leaders really wanted change they would soon sort things out
    All they really want is more of the same
    The points awarded situation is rubbish
    The clan collusion is rubbish
    The only positive thing to change since I joined this site is the 200 points difference rule
    Which I would change to 100
    As I said before the most active clans are rewar ...[text shortened]... I haven't been asked to be on the clan committee
    Has anyone been officially asked to be on it ?
    Padger,
    Actually no one has offically been asked. It was a suggestion made which some of us thought was a good one. Don't even know if it will come to be.

    Regards,
    -VR
  8. Subscriber Very Rusty
    Treat Everyone Equal
    01 Nov '16 19:47
    Originally posted by Silverstriker
    I fear the other thread will just turn out the same way.

    A couple more safeguards in would be appreciated - whatever you do there will always be someone unhappy.

    However, there are a couple of decent points and if it gets some people being more civilised than that is a decent start

    I applaud your efforts
    Silverstriker,
    There have been many good points made, some of which I like very much. There is one thing though is how do you control what is going on this year with other clans just handing one certain clan points intentionally. Perhaps that is where the committee would come in useful?

    Regards,
    -VR
  9. 01 Nov '16 20:18 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by Very Rusty
    Padger,
    I didn't notice anyone ask you to be on the committee if one were to be formed. I think with the right Clan Leaders on the committee that change is possible. This is not to say if you were on it, you couldn't make a positive contribution. I am sure you have many good ideas to share.

    Regards,
    -VR
    i actually think that it should not involve clan leaders as they would not be so impartial, i think members with a proven track record over the years of clan play with no leadership would be a good starting point otherwise its just going to descend into squabbles as they forum currently does. i would go with all clan leaders being able to nominate someone for the committee as a starting point
  10. 01 Nov '16 20:27
    Originally posted by Wycombe Al
    i actually think that it should not involve clan leaders as they would not be so impartial, i think members with a proven track record over the years of clan play with no leadership would be a good starting point otherwise its just going to descend into squabbles as they forum currently does. i would go with all clan leaders being able to nominate someone for the committee as a starting point
    also once elected this committee has to remain anon otherwise clan leaders will start trying to influence them
  11. 01 Nov '16 20:49
    Originally posted by Ragwort
    A couple of observations on the debate so far:

    With regard to ratings:

    The RHP rating reflects the performance across the whole site so creating a clan rating strikes me as over burdensome. It would have one immediately bigger problem which is that any new clan rating will be provisional for a period and would lead confusion until the rating was establ ...[text shortened]... ames to its membership from similar strength opponents should be hamstrung by the system either.
    I don't think it would be a problem at all, there is already different ratings, current, five year, ninety day average and tournament entry. One could keep ones present rating and only new players would be subject to a provisional rating as is the case already.

    A move to a system based on the rise and fall of ELO would in my opinion revolutionise the clan system and do away with most of the problems.
  12. 01 Nov '16 22:43
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    I don't think it would be a problem at all, there is already different ratings, current, five year, ninety day average and tournament entry. One could keep ones present rating and only new players would be subject to a provisional rating as is the case already.

    A move to a system based on the rise and fall of ELO would in my opinion revolutionise the clan system and do away with most of the problems.
    could just get rid of the clan system
  13. 02 Nov '16 04:26
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    I don't think it would be a problem at all, there is already different ratings, current, five year, ninety day average and tournament entry. One could keep ones present rating and only new players would be subject to a provisional rating as is the case already.

    A move to a system based on the rise and fall of ELO would in my opinion revolutionise the clan system and do away with most of the problems.
    What is ELO and how does it work ?
    I have only ever played chess on line so have no idea what you are on about
  14. Subscriber Ragwort
    Ex Duris Gloria
    02 Nov '16 06:21
    Originally posted by padger
    What is ELO and how does it work ?
    I have only ever played chess on line so have no idea what you are on about
    ELO is a rating system invented by Arpad Elo. It is used in other sports as well as chess. This site uses it to calculate ratings here as does FIDE ICCF USCF ICC although they may have added tweaks to the formula. Chess.com uses another system/formula called glick system. The RHP elo formula is explained in the faq FAQ.
  15. 02 Nov '16 07:32
    Originally posted by Ragwort
    ELO is a rating system invented by Arpad Elo. It is used in other sports as well as chess. This site uses it to calculate ratings here as does FIDE ICCF USCF ICC although they may have added tweaks to the formula. Chess.com uses another system/formula called glick system. The RHP elo formula is explained in the faq FAQ.
    If this is the case why does Robbie keep on about a system that we already use ,that doesn't work effectively
    The only ELO I know is the one that sang Mr Blue Skies