Drum Machines/Analog Synths/Recording Software

Originally posted by robbie carrobie

if you want to produce electronic, computer generated sounding music, then that is all well and fine, but its like computer generated art, you can tell its done on a computer as opposed to a canvas with oils!

A few years ago I would agree with the sentiment here but not now. I wonder if you were able to tell that the new Star Trek Movie, Spiderman II, Call of duty 3, Under the Tuscan Sun and a whole host of other movies were electronic, computer generated scores.

I have piano samples that you can only tell apart from most real grand pianos because the samples are so much better. Only a real Steinway D sounds better but you try and record it with anything close to the professionalism that the sound engineers who produced the samples have.

It's no longer like it used to be with a single sample of a note that gets mutated in software to reflect how you played it. Each note is sampled multiple times at different velocities, with different additional notes open to catch the reverberations of the other piano strings. Then they are all sampled again with soft pedal down and then sustain and then both. Separate samples for stoccato and after trails. The software streams these samples off disk as you play with optional features such as picking different samples for the same note if played twice in quick succession or specific legato samples if you happen to be playing legato. You then get all these samples recorded from three different positions so you can place the listener close to or further from the piano. It is a revelation to hear.

I do understand there's nothing like live playing of real instruments but how many people have access to the actual Gretch drum kit used by Metallica or a Bosendorfer 290 piano and a big name sound engineer to record them on vintage Neumann microphones.

Originally posted by Wheely
A few years ago I would agree with the sentiment here but not now. I wonder if you were able to tell that the new Star Trek Movie, Spiderman II, Call of duty 3, Under the Tuscan Sun and a whole host of other movies were electronic, computer generated scores.

I have piano samples that you can only tell apart from most real grand pianos because the samples ndorfer 290 piano and a big name sound engineer to record them on vintage Neumann microphones.

its all very well if you are using loops and samples etc etc you want to create an 'electronic sound', but what if you want to record some jazz where improvisation on a theme is the appeal? or some blues where the interplay between human and instrument is paramount? or some folk ? or even some minimalist stuff where the ambient sound of the harmonics takes precedence. what are we to do?

perhaps it is possible to manipulate the sample digitally to such an extent that it emulates the sound in such as way as to be unrecognizable from an actual recording , however, when we consider the appeal of say nickelback or even snowpatrol when the produced music for the spiderman movies, what was the appeal? that's right, it was the human element, and that, in my amazing opinion is what computer generated sound will never be able to replace.

the original poster cited kraftwerk as a model, well yes, if that's the sound he is trying to create then samples etc will be the way to go, but if he wants to capture something with a human element, then there is no substitute im afraid.

i really like the idea of a multi media, both computer generated sound and the human element, i love (dont tell my heavy metal friends Kaza and the saint) , the track mad pursuit, by junkie xl featuring electrocute, check it out, it combines both these elements in a way that is really appealing.

YouTube

what do you think, i would appreciate your thoughts?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
its all very well if you are using loops and samples etc etc you want to create an 'electronic sound', but what if you want to record some jazz where improvisation on a theme is the appeal? or some blues where the interplay between human and instrument is paramount? or some folk ? or even some minimalist stuff where the ambient sound of the harmoni /www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2rXrQvKLok

what do you think, i would appreciate your thoughts?

Instinctively I agree with you regarding the interplay of performer and instrument. However, these samples are actually professionally recorded moments of a top class musician playing a top class instrument.

The important point to note is that the sounds you play with these software packages are not digitally manipulated at all. They are simply recordings of actual instruments with the data extracted off the disk and played as you hit keys on the keyboard.

For the electronic music, computers won the battle years ago but it is only now that real instruments are being assaulted. Only now is it possible to move enough data around fast enough to emulate real instruments. Even now, you still need a good machine or preferably several machines working together but for smaller orchestrations a modern PC will do.

For these samples, each note is recorded with as many articulations as you could possibly imagine and these articulations are mapped to keys on the keyboard. You can therefore, for example, play a violin part and with a little practice, extract nearly the full range of articulations that a real violinist can. Not only that but if you do the same articulation on the same note you might produce a slightly different recording of it the second time because they are recorded multiple times. You can think of playing this violin as a completely new instrument (because it has keys instead of strings and bow) with all the expression of a real violin. You can become part of this new instrument in the same way as a violinist can with theirs.

Additionally, these samples are recorded in a top quality studio with the ambiance of that studio (or hall) recorded too and included in the output. One of the samples I have is just the sound of the hall with nobody in it playing anything. You can also get samples that include the sound of pedals being depressed or creaks from within the piano itself.

One other important point here is that however important a real instrument might be, we are always going to come a cropper with the recording itself. The recording can turn a virtuoso performance into an amateur sound. I myself am a classical guitarist, classically trained. I can play a classical guitar. However, as mentioned, unless it is physically impossible to play a particular classical piece on a keyboard, I get a far better recording out of these samples than I do out of miking up my own guitar.

Also remember that the human element is just as important as before it's just that now you don't need to learn to play a violin and a trumpet 🙂 These things don't play themselves you know!

You can listen to some demos here http://www.soundsonline.com/product.php?productid=EW-172

Originally posted by Wheely
Instinctively I agree with you regarding the interplay of performer and instrument. However, these samples are actually professionally recorded moments of a top class musician playing a top class instrument.

The important point to note is that the sounds you play with these software packages are not digitally manipulated at all. They are simply recordin
You can listen to some demos here http://www.soundsonline.com/product.php?productid=EW-172

yes very impressive, but you can still tell!

its like the difference between digital aficionados and analogue aficionados, with digital they say its just too clinical, but theoretically superior, with analogue, there is a warmth of tone, that digital may emulate, but simply cannot provide that warmth of tone, thus i see it in the same context as with samples and the instrument itself

I once saw Julian Bream at the royal Scottish academy of music and drama, he came on with this lute like instrument, it had more tuning pegs than ive ever seen, anyhow, the point being, is that yes, you can emulate, yes you can make beautiful sounding music, yes it will sound professional, more so than some dude in his loft, but nothing can bring the same element of expression of man/lady and instrument, nor the experience of a virtuosic musician, nuthin!

we cannot be fooled by this, for it is, as i have said before, the human element, that sparkle of expression between man and instrument that makes music so enjoyable. for it is a well known fact, that keyboard players like to press buttons and want to take over the world! 😉

Interesting discussion! I'm getting better feedback on this thread than I could have hoped for. I will definitely be moving towards sample-based music to being with, as my space at home will be pretty small and not at all ready for recording live instruments not to mention the fact that I am currently enthralled with the recordings done by Kraftwerk, The Knife, Hot Chip and other electrnoic acts, however it is my plan, when I move into a bigger house, to be able to also record live as well as electronically and to raise my kids up in a musical environment.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
yes very impressive, but you can still tell!

its like the difference between digital aficionados and analogue aficionados, with digital they say its just too clinical, but theoretically superior, with analogue, there is a warmth of tone, that digital may emulate, but simply cannot provide that warmth of tone, thus i see it in the same context as ...[text shortened]... well known fact, that keyboard players like to press buttons and want to take over the world! 😉

Well you do have to remember that you are listening to these demos via a digital medium that has additionally been compressed so whatever you record should sound digital to some extent.

For me, if I am sitting at a concert, I too can appreciate the addition of the performers energy, movements and sweat. However, I´m willing to bet that many of the sounds you hear at most performances have a digital signal path somewhere along the line. I am a great believer that anything analogue is potentially superior to its digital counterpart but I can´t help thinking that in the real world, a DVD is better than VHS tape 🙂

Ultimately though, there are other issues to consider in the context of this discussion. I don´t know about you but I can´t tell one end of a cello from the other but I can make cello based music that can move me even more so than when I play the guitar. So, I think it is important to take into account the fact that digital must always be better for playing a flute where I´m concerned because the noise I make on a real flute sounds like the death throws of a hippopotamus.

You are right that a virtuoso musician will always outperform someone on a digital piano (with the possible exception of a pianist) but the quality of what can be produced electronically nowadays is astounding.

EDIT: Jeez, I just listened to those demos again, did you listen to the classical guitar one or the Legato Violin? They are beautful!!

Originally posted by Wheely
Well you do have to remember that you are listening to these demos via a digital medium that has additionally been compressed so whatever you record should sound digital to some extent.

For me, if I am sitting at a concert, I too can appreciate the addition of the performers energy, movements and sweat. However, I´m willing to bet that many of the sounds ...[text shortened]... mos again, did you listen to the classical guitar one or the Legato Violin? They are beautful!!

i love flamenco guitar myself, carlos montoya especially, i hold it up as a prime example of why, computers will never be able to emulate the sound of a live instrument, for as a student of the guitar you yourself are aware that its the percussive elements that are so conducive to the enjoyment of flamenco, dig this ya'll

YouTube

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
i love flamenco guitar myself, carlos montoya especially, i hold it up as a prime example of why, computers will never be able to emulate the sound of a live instrument, for as a student of the guitar you yourself are aware that its the percussive elements that are so conducive to the enjoyment of flamenco, dig this ya'll

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cv2Fyjk0GGM

There is something magical about watching someone play. I still feel that though I could probably play that piece, though perhaps not as well, I´d never be able to record it very well.

What probably comes from all this is that technology now gives us even more stuff to be creative with and amen to that I say!

Interesting to discuss this with you !

Originally posted by Wheely
There is something magical about watching someone play. I still feel that though I could probably play that piece, though perhaps not as well, I´d never be able to record it very well.

What probably comes from all this is that technology now gives us even more stuff to be creative with and amen to that I say!

Interesting to discuss this with you !

wow Wheely, you could play that piece !!, i bow! if i could play that piece i would be living the music, and reserving the keyboard and samples for composition, been really good talking with you my friend - regards Robbie.

So I did a lot of research and I have to decided to go with mainly outboard hardware as opposed to being entirley software based. There's really no fun in making music without the beautiful gear. I went with the Korg R3 and I couldn't be happier. Compact and toyish but with a powerful engine, vocoder, arpeggiator, sequencers and good editing software. The manual is extremely well written and great for the beginner like me.

Thanks to all 3 of you for your contributions to this thread!

Next it will be time to start looking for a good desktop, sound card, monitors and software and I will be up and rolling!

Originally posted by darvlay
So I did a lot of research and I have to decided to go with mainly outboard hardware as opposed to being entirley software based. There's really no fun in making music without the beautiful gear. I went with the Korg R3 and I couldn't be happier. Compact and toyish but with a powerful engine, vocoder, arpeggiator, sequencers and good editing software. Th ...[text shortened]... rt looking for a good desktop, sound card, monitors and software and I will be up and rolling!

Hey my friend, do us a favour and when you get your kit up and running, post a track , so that we can enjoy something original - regards Robbie. i have some Jazz that a player from Trinidad sent to me. its quite awesome. i may post it if i can obtain his permission. 🙂

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Hey my friend, do us a favour and when you get your kit up and running, post a track , so that we can enjoy something original - regards Robbie. i have some Jazz that a player from Trinidad sent to me. its quite awesome. i may post it if i can obtain his permission. 🙂

I second that. Let us hear something though I do know that can be a little scary.

You can´t go wrong with Korg in my view if you want to do it in hardware. There´s a great Korg sound that you can´t find elsewhere.

Congratulations on your purchase! It´s a great feeling isn´t it!

Originally posted by Wheely
I second that. Let us hear something though I do know that can be a little scary.

You can´t go wrong with Korg in my view if you want to do it in hardware. There´s a great Korg sound that you can´t find elsewhere.

Congratulations on your purchase! It´s a great feeling isn´t it!

Oh yes, it feels great. How I love that feeling.

If you or Robbie are interested in a little bit of my work, here is the band I am currently with:

http://www.myspace.com/theknifingscut
YouTube

That's me with the ES-335 (the big red guy).

As soon as I get stuff figured out and have cut a track, I will for sure post it here.

Originally posted by darvlay
Oh yes, it feels great. How I love that feeling.

If you or Robbie are interested in a little bit of my work, here is the band I am currently with:

http://www.myspace.com/theknifingscut
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lAkyU-mPGGk

That's me with the ES-335 (the big red guy).

As soon as I get stuff figured out and have cut a track, I will for sure post it here.

I loved the youtube clip. Great stuff!! Real energy and it´s always an honour to see people just doing their music live and "unplugged"! The live gig came over, for me at least, much better that the recorded stuff on myspace.

It has to be said, it´s not really my style but I enjoyed it never the less. Couldn´t quite work out who was the big red guy but it didn´t really matter!

You really should check out East West Ministry of Rock sample set (Jeez, I´ve started sounding like an advert now), it would be right up your street and you´d have great fun with it on your Korg.

Really great to hear this stuff darvlay!

Originally posted by Wheely
I loved the youtube clip. Great stuff!! Real energy and it´s always an honour to see people just doing their music live and "unplugged"! The live gig came over, for me at least, much better that the recorded stuff on myspace.

It has to be said, it´s not really my style but I enjoyed it never the less. Couldn´t quite work out who was the big red guy but ...[text shortened]... eet and you´d have great fun with it on your Korg.

Really great to hear this stuff darvlay!

Thanks, Wheels.

This is the big red guy:
http://www.guitargranny.com/electric/gib_es335_cherry.jpg