Originally posted by Natsia disagree, personally I think it must be incredibly difficult to write around the constrains of the timing and structure of a song, and I don't think it was a fair statement.
NYARG.
But that's not disagreeing with me. Despite my provocative OP, I recognize their aesthetic value as 'lyrics'. As not comparable mediums, if you will. But that means that their value as poetry is weak. As much as some poetry would be hard to use as 'lyrics', and their value as such would be weak.
Originally posted by Palynka Like I said, social commentary is simplistic and takes a form very close to propaganda, with its combination of aesthetics and repetition. 'Resonation' is a product of that. A similar argument could be made for the philosophy in lyrics. In the end, it's just a longer fortune cookie.
A corollary of the value of lyrics being contextualized in the song is t ...[text shortened]... at way, then you must agree that there is at least some degree of objectivity in its value.
I'm not getting pulled into this one, you're making way too much out of it.
Lyrics can have meaning to some and not to others. Within the song, they add to the sum of the parts. Out of it they're only worth investigating either subjectively, or as part of a group venture in which the aim is to analyse the group's views on the lyrics, not the quality of the lyrics themselves.
Originally posted by Palynka But that's not disagreeing with me. Despite my provocative OP, I recognize their aesthetic value as 'lyrics'. As not comparable mediums, if you will. But that means that their value as poetry is weak. As much as some poetry would be hard to use as 'lyrics', and their value as such would be weak.
On what scale is poetry of any higher level than lyrics?
Originally posted by Starrman On what scale is poetry of any higher level than lyrics?
Mine, in particular, and in general any coherent one. This stems from the fact that non-lyrical poetry is less constrained than lyrics, so lyrics will always be a poorer medium when seen as poetry.
Originally posted by Starrman I'm not getting pulled into this one, you're making way too much out of it.
Lyrics can have meaning to some and not to others. Within the song, they add to the sum of the parts. Out of it they're only worth investigating either subjectively, or as part of a group venture in which the aim is to analyse the group's views on the lyrics, not the quality of the lyrics themselves.
Fine. Avoid my point. Pretend it wasn't there. Don't get 'pulled' into it.
Originally posted by Palynka Mine, in particular, and in general any coherent one. This stems from the fact that non-lyrical poetry is less constrained than lyrics, so lyrics will always be a poorer medium when seen as poetry.
And non-lyrical poetry then being less constrained than prose? And prose than the novel?
What you call constraint I call medium, to make any scale of which medium is better is just an exercise in aesthetic preference. Would you put oil painting above pastels?
Originally posted by Starrman And non-lyrical poetry then being less constrained than prose? And prose than the novel?
What you call constraint I call medium, to make any scale of which medium is better is just an exercise in aesthetic preference. Would you put oil painting above pastels?
Yes. And if you were reading this thread you would see where I addressed that issue. And that's why on that sentence I clearly added "when seen as poetry".
Originally posted by Starrman I just don't want to get antagonized.
It's just the one trick I know. Anyway, you're focusing on the poetry part of my past (which was the one I was interested less). I'd love to hear your thoughts on the other two.
Originally posted by Palynka Yes. And if you were reading this thread you would see where I addressed that issue. And that's why on that sentence I clearly added "when seen as poetry".
So some people take lyrics too seriously. Some people need that, or enjoy that and if it makes them feel good; fantastic. I still don't see why you want to extract them from their medium and compare them to another medium, aren't they just fine where they are? Propaganda is stretching it a little and pales into insignificance when compared to visual media.
Originally posted by Palynka It's just the one trick I know. Anyway, you're focusing on the poetry part of my past (which was the one I was interested less). I'd love to hear your thoughts on the other two.
No argument on philosophy, or social commentary. Though they do have perhaps insight. Even if they can't guide you they can sometimes open the door.
Originally posted by Starrman Propaganda is stretching it a little and pales into insignificance when compared to visual media.
Is it? Many people fall into social groups in their teenage years due to music that end up shaping their political views. And voila, their political views often mirror the ones of their loved musicians. I don't think this is a coincidence.
Of course I'm generalizing and speculating a lot, but I think there is a strong power in anything that is repeated to you in a form that is as pleasing aesthetically as someone's favourite music is.
Edit - I didn't comment on the rest, as I see we hit a barrier. Better to leave in respectful disagreement.
Originally posted by Palynka Is it? Many people fall into social groups in their teenage years due to music that end up shaping their political views. And voila, their political views often mirror the ones of their loved musicians. I don't think this is a coincidence.
Of course I'm generalizing and speculating a lot, but I think there is a strong power in anything that is repeated to ...[text shortened]... comment on the rest, as I see we hit a barrier. Better to leave in respectful disagreement.
Well, personally I wouldn't know about that. I had little or no musical influence or political awareness until I went to college and then, drugs and computer games took over. It wasn't until I started working that I began to form political ideas, this place and my philosphy degree have been the prime factors in structuring it, previously it just did not interest me at all.
Originally posted by Palynka In the end they're just poor poetry, weak philosophy or simplistic political commentary.
The great majority of poetry, philosophy, and political commentary (or anything else that human beings do) is poor. Why should lyrics be any different?
It's easy to look back at the great poets and thinkers from the past and forget that for every great one, there were legions of terrible ones. Greatness has been and always will be rare.
Music Lyrics
29 Sep '09 10:16
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