Nationality, Patriotism and Identity

Originally posted by Palynka
I'm not aware of them myself, so I can't answer that one...

Okay, can anyone aware of those histories take part in their celebration, then?

Originally posted by Starrman
Okay, can anyone aware of those histories take part in their celebration, then?

I'd say yes, but I'm not sure I understand your question... Why can't someone take part in a celebration?

Originally posted by Palynka
I'd say yes, but I'm not sure I understand your question... Why can't someone take part in a celebration?

They can, I just want to find out what the importance of the grouping is, if anyone can join or take part, where do the boundaries lay and how do they map against National ones.

Originally posted by Starrman
They can, I just want to find out what the importance of the grouping is, if anyone can join or take part, where do the boundaries lay and how do they map against National ones.

I don't think a celebration needs to be rationalized to that point, so I'd say anyone can take part as long as it feels there's something to celebrate about.

(I'm saying even beyond the party, which is obviously for anyone who wants to have a good time)

Originally posted by Palynka
I don't think a celebration needs to be rationalized to that point, so I'd say anyone can take part as long as it feels there's something to celebrate about.

(I'm saying even beyond the party, which is obviously for anyone who wants to have a good time)

I'm not rationalising the celebration I'm seeing if the celebration is an aspect of importance to the group's boundaries. Your post suggests not, so what is important?

Originally posted by Starrman
I'm not rationalising the celebration I'm seeing if the celebration is an aspect of importance to the group's boundaries. Your post suggests not, so what is important?

Whether you feel that there's something to celebrate about. This can mean different things for different people.

CFT might celebrate his heritage, a Japanese might celebrate simply if he's happy to live in England, or because he feels welcomed here.

The post that was quoted here has been removed

Your post is self-contradictory, in one sentence you say there are defined cultural boundaries and in others there seems to be a lack of definition. You use words like fluid and diverse wihtout defining them and then you charge me with proving there is no such thing as English culture.

All you've done is say 'out of everything potentially cultural there exists some things to which Englishness is applicable' but you haven't said why or how these things relate to Englishness without relying on a the vague notions of history. As far as I can make out Englishness is the sum of all things which have happened in England but not limited to geographical or historical boundaries thereof. If that's the case at the end of the day all I can really say about being English is that my subjective view of being English is what counts, my accident of birth is supposedly something to be proud of and something which should cause me to align myself with this country's past failures and successes, of which I had no part, and now to align myself with its future and that of its people, the specifics of which and the constituents thereof I may only agree with in small part.

Celebrating any national day is, to me, ridiculous. St Patrick's day included.

Originally posted by Starrman
Celebrating any national day is, to me, ridiculous. St Patrick's day included.

Is celebrating a birthday ridiculous to you, as well?

Originally posted by Palynka
Is celebrating a birthday ridiculous to you, as well?

Yes, it's an excuse for a party, nothing more. Certainly not a reason to have pride in anything.

Originally posted by Starrman
Yes, it's an excuse for a party, nothing more. Certainly not a reason to have pride in anything.

Why do equate all celebrations with 'pride'?

Originally posted by Palynka
Why do equate all celebrations with 'pride'?

I don't, as is evidenced by the fact that I celebrate birthdays for the meaningless fun, you're sidetracking. St George's day is the subject at hand.

Originally posted by Starrman
I don't, as is evidenced by the fact that I celebrate birthdays for the meaningless fun, you're sidetracking. St George's day is the subject at hand.

I'm not sidetracking, I'm just pointing out the inconsistency. You may celebrate birthdays for the meaningless fun, but the fact remains that you celebrate it as a birthday.

You attempt to equate national days with chest-thumping patriotism, while don't think that's necessary at all. One can celebrate a national day without thinking it is somehow IMPORTANT to do so, but simply because there is a will to do so.

Originally posted by Palynka
I'm not sidetracking, I'm just pointing out the inconsistency. You may celebrate birthdays for the meaningless fun, but the fact remains that you celebrate it as a birthday.

You attempt to equate national days with chest-thumping patriotism, while don't think that's necessary at all. One can celebrate a national day without thinking it is somehow IMPORTANT to do so, but simply because there is a will to do so.

That's not the issue here. CFT is talking about pride in the nation. I agree you can celebrate it for no reason at all, all good celebrations probably have an element of random inconsequentiality in them, although I have to ask why have a national day at all if that's the case. But CFT is very much equating the celebration with the pride in the nation, that's the issue here.