What are you reading?

Originally posted by Blackamp
ah yes, Maoism. something to do with causing famines and turning kids against their parents, isn't it?

Ehm, no. It's a form of progress that went horribly wrong.

Originally posted by rwingett
And just what is in your "Communist top ten." Can we have Casey Kasem count them down for us?

In descending order, like Keith Olbermann:
10. Fascism: What it is and how to fight it (Trotsky)
9. Works (Stalin)
8. M'ana al-Nakba (Constantine Zurayq)
7. Das Kapital (Karl Marx)
6. The Little Red Book (The Writings of Mao Tse-Tung)
5. What Is To Be Done (Vladamir Lenin)
4. Woman's Evolution (Evelyn Reed)
3. Empire (Negri and Hardt)
2. Guerrilla Warfare (Che)
1. The Communist Manifesto (Karl Marx and Frederick Engels)

Originally posted by scherzo
Ehm, no. It's a form of progress that went horribly wrong.

Doesn't sound much like progress to me.

Originally posted by scherzo
Ehm, no. It's a form of progress that went horribly wrong.

ah yes, 'Progress': The Great Leap Backwards.

Originally posted by rwingett
Doesn't sound much like progress to me.

Of course not, Mr. I-Hate-Marxist-Leninism.

Originally posted by scherzo
In descending order, like Keith Olbermann:
10. Fascism: What it is and how to fight it (Trotsky)
9. Works (Stalin)
8. M'ana al-Nakba (Constantine Zurayq)
7. Das Kapital (Karl Marx)
6. The Little Red Book (The Writings of Mao Tse-Tung)
5. What Is To Be Done (Vladamir Lenin)
4. Woman's Evolution (Evelyn Reed)
3. Empire (Negri and Hardt)
2. Guerrilla Warfare (Che)
1. The Communist Manifesto (Karl Marx and Frederick Engels)

You know, I've got five of those books. In a box in my basement. Along with all my other books by Marx, Lenin, Mao, Trotsky, Enver Hoxha, and all the rest. The only top ten they belong in is the top ten ways to screw up socialism. Especially anything by Stalin. It boggles the mind how you could put that in your top ten. At least have the decency to put him beneath Trotsky on the list.

When I was young and foolish I might have compiled a similar list (but without Stalin). Now that I'm a little older and marginally less foolish I'll recommend a different list (in no particular order).

My Disillusionment In Russia (Emma Goldman)
Anarchism And Other Essays (Emma Goldman)
God And The State (Mikhail Bakunin)
Anarchism: A Collection of Revolutionary Writings (Peter Kropotkin)
What Is Property? (Pierre Joseph-Proudhon)
Post-Scarcity Anarchism (Murray Bookchin)
Chomsky On Anarchism (Noam Chomsky)
Profit Over People (Noam Chomsky)
Communism In The Bible (José Porfirio Miranda)
The Russian Revolution and Leninism Or Marxism? (Rosa Luxemburg)

I haven't quite read all those yet. 'What Is Property?' is up next on my list.

Originally posted by rwingett
You know, I've got five of those books. In a box in my basement. Along with all my other books by Marx, Lenin, Mao, Trotsky, Enver Hoxha, and all the rest. The only top ten they belong in is the top ten ways to screw up socialism. Especially anything by Stalin. It boggles the mind how you could put that in your top ten. At least have the decency to put him xemburg)

I haven't quite read all those yet. 'What Is Property?' is up next on my list.

As i have just finished 'the road to Wigan pier', Mr Orwell discusses at some length why one should adopt , or why he deemed it necessary why one should adopt socialism, in his case it was to counteract the fervour of European Fascism, Do all socialists profess the same thing, is it as clearly defined in purpose or principle, and how does one practice it?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
As i have just finished 'the road to Wigan pier', Mr Orwell discusses at some length why one should adopt , or why he deemed it necessary why one should adopt socialism, in his case it was to counteract the fervour of European Fascism, Do all socialists profess the same thing, is it as clearly defined in purpose or principle, and how does one practice it?

I may have to read 'The Road To Wigan Pier' sometime. To our friend Scherzo, I would also recommend 'Homage To Catalonia', where he gives his account of how the Marxist-Leninists betrayed the Spanish revolution, and 'Animal Farm', which, of course, is a condemnation of Marxism-Leninism.

All socialists profess some things in common. But few profess everything in common. Once again, it all comes down to how you want to define socialism. It could encompass everyone from Mitterand to Stalin.

Originally posted by scherzo
In descending order, like Keith Olbermann:
10. Fascism: What it is and how to fight it (Trotsky)
9. Works (Stalin)
8. M'ana al-Nakba (Constantine Zurayq)
7. Das Kapital (Karl Marx)
6. The Little Red Book (The Writings of Mao Tse-Tung)
5. What Is To Be Done (Vladamir Lenin)
4. Woman's Evolution (Evelyn Reed)
3. Empire (Negri and Hardt)
2. Guerrilla Warfare (Che)
1. The Communist Manifesto (Karl Marx and Frederick Engels)

You can't be a communist.

Didn't you know communists believe religion is the opium of the masses?

How can you possibly be a muslim and a communist at the same time?

Originally posted by rwingett
You know, I've got five of those books. In a box in my basement. Along with all my other books by Marx, Lenin, Mao, Trotsky, Enver Hoxha, and all the rest. The only top ten they belong in is the top ten ways to screw up socialism. Especially anything by Stalin. It boggles the mind how you could put that in your top ten. At least have the decency to put him ...[text shortened]... xemburg)

I haven't quite read all those yet. 'What Is Property?' is up next on my list.

You know, I've got five of those books. In a box in my basement. Along with all my other books by Marx, Lenin, Mao, Trotsky, Enver Hoxha, and all the rest. The only top ten they belong in is the top ten ways to screw up socialism. Especially anything by Stalin. It boggles the mind how you could put that in your top ten. At least have the decency to put him beneath Trotsky on the list.

I said, like Keith Olbermann. Thus, Trotsky is my least favorite, then Stalin, all the way up to Marx/Engels.


My Disillusionment In Russia (Emma Goldman)
Anarchism And Other Essays (Emma Goldman)
God And The State (Mikhail Bakunin)
Anarchism: A Collection of Revolutionary Writings (Peter Kropotkin)
What Is Property? (Pierre Joseph-Proudhon)
Post-Scarcity Anarchism (Murray Bookchin)
Chomsky On Anarchism (Noam Chomsky)
Profit Over People (Noam Chomsky)
Communism In The Bible (José Porfirio Miranda)
The Russian Revolution and Leninism Or Marxism? (Rosa Luxemburg)

Are you some sort of anarchist???

Originally posted by rwingett
I may have to read 'The Road To Wigan Pier' sometime. To our friend Scherzo, I would also recommend 'Homage To Catalonia', where he gives his account of how the Marxist-Leninists betrayed the Spanish revolution, and 'Animal Farm', which, of course, is a condemnation of Marxism-Leninism.

All socialists profess some things in common. But few profess every ...[text shortened]... to how you want to define socialism. It could encompass everyone from Mitterand to Stalin.

I may have to read 'The Road To Wigan Pier' sometime. To our friend Scherzo, I would also recommend 'Homage To Catalonia', where he gives his account of how the Marxist-Leninists betrayed the Spanish revolution, and 'Animal Farm', which, of course, is a condemnation of Marxism-Leninism.

I've read "Homage." I bet he was bitter because the (anti-Stalinist) party he served with "allowed" him to get shot in the neck. As for Animal Farm, I perceive it as being pro-Marxist-Leninist, but anti-Stalinist. Old Major, who starts the song then dies soon after, I think he represents Lenin. He directly incited the revolution, and his ideals were frequently cited by all the animal leaders. Snowball is Trotsky, another Marxist-Leninist. I think we can both agree who Napoleon is.

All socialists profess some things in common. But few profess everything in common. Once again, it all comes down to how you want to define socialism. It could encompass everyone from Mitterand to Stalin.

Your anti-unity sentiment will get us socialists nowhere.

Originally posted by scherzo
[b]You know, I've got five of those books. In a box in my basement. Along with all my other books by Marx, Lenin, Mao, Trotsky, Enver Hoxha, and all the rest. The only top ten they belong in is the top ten ways to screw up socialism. Especially anything by Stalin. It boggles the mind how you could put that in your top ten. At least have the decency to put hi ...[text shortened]... n Revolution and Leninism Or Marxism? (Rosa Luxemburg)

Are you some sort of anarchist???[/b]

Yes, I'm an anarchist. Are you just now figuring that out? You have to abandon the concept of the "vanguard" party. It leads straight toward dictatorship. You also need to abandon the fantasy of a violent revolution led by such a vanguard party. Even if it is successful, it will necessarily lead to a hierarchical and militarized society. As Emma Goldman correctly observed, the means cannot be divorced from the ends.

If you want a "transitional phase" into socialism, then your time would be better spent fostering worker ownership of companies within the current capitalist economy. Spread economic democracy. This, then, would transition into a peaceful, democratic, worker owned economy, and not some dystopian Stalinist nightmare ruled by your dictatorial "vanguard" party.

Your pro-Leninist sympathies will get us socialists nowhere.

its really quite interesrting,

Orwell States, 'the only thing for which we can combine is the underlying ideal of Socialism; justice and liberty. But it is hardly strong enough to call this ideal, underlying. It is almost completely forgotten. It has been buried under layer after layer of doctrinaire priggishness, party squabbles, and half baked 'progressiveness', until its like a diamond hidden under a mountain of dung. The job of the socialist is to get it out again. Justice and Liberty. Those are the words that have got to ring like a bugle across the world.'

it seems quite clear to me that Orwells socialism endeavours to opposed every form of tyranny and he genuinely believed that socialism would free the world of all sorts of evils, if it could be presented and adopted by the public.

Originally posted by rwingett
Yes, I'm an anarchist. Are you just now figuring that out? You have to abandon the concept of the "vanguard" party. It leads straight toward dictatorship. You also need to abandon the fantasy of a violent revolution led by such a vanguard party. Even if it is successful, it will necessarily lead to a hierarchical and militarized society. As Emma Goldman cor ...[text shortened]... torial "vanguard" party.

Your pro-Leninist sympathies will get us socialists nowhere.

You are a disgrace to socialism. You have no proof to assert your claims. I can think of plenty of times where the ends and means were completely separate. Try to think outside the box and not be so rigid and conservative.

Originally posted by scherzo
You are a disgrace to socialism. You have no proof to assert your claims. I can think of plenty of times where the ends and means were completely separate. Try to think outside the box and not be so rigid and conservative.

I have no proof to assert my claims? Look at the disastrous history of Leninism. That is my proof.

The massacre of the Kronstadt sailors.
The suppression of dissent.
The Cheka, the NKVD, the KGB.
Dzerzhinsky and Beria.
The gulags, famines and purges.
Hungary, 1956.
Prague Spring, 1968.

That is only a partial list of my evidence. I think it is you who should not be so rigid and conservative. Think outside that Leninist box and come up with some 21st century approaches toward socialism, instead of your moribund 19th century ones. A lot has happened in socialist thought since Lenin's death.