UN has suggested that those suffering from starvation could double due to the coronavirus close down. Is there a genuine (non partisan) argument for a cost benefit analysis of the shut down?
https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2020/apr/21/coronavirus-pandemic-will-cause-famine-of-biblical-proportions
28 Apr 20
@huckleberryhound saidClearly yes in the regions that are going to be affected. If the lockdown is going to cause x number of deaths and covid is going to cause y number of deaths, where x > y then there is a compelling argument against a lockdown in those regions.
UN has suggested that those suffering from starvation could double due to the coronavirus close down. Is there a genuine (non partisan) argument for a cost benefit analysis of the shut down?
https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2020/apr/21/coronavirus-pandemic-will-cause-famine-of-biblical-proportions
The wider world should do whatever it can to offset the food shortage and support the health systems to cope with the consequences of them not having a lockdown.
It’s going to demand a massive logistical effort from a world wrapped up in its own lockdown’s and covid trauma but morally it’s a no brainer.
28 Apr 20
First of all, this warning does not come from "the UN" but from the head of a UN agency. Furthermore, the risk is in developing nations, the lockdown in rich countries does not affect this. This UN agency is asking for more aid to deliver emergency food supplies in developing nations to prevent deaths due to starvation. They are not calling for an end to quarantine measures. The 265 million refers to a group of people at risk, not an estimate for the actual death toll.
@kevcvs57 saidDo you know there is more food banks in Scotland than McDonalds? If the British working poor can't work, they starve too. who buys the Big Issue (homeless magazine designed to give the homeless a possible revenue stream...explained for international eyes) when there is no footfall in the high street? That magazine has actually gone into the shops, but the revenue for the salesman is gone. There's stress,depression, domestic violence, debt, i'm sure i could expand the list. If the food producton in 1st world countries stops, the 3rd world starves. How does a hair dresser with three kids feed them when they have a mortgage, bills, and food to pay for?
Clearly yes in the regions that are going to be affected. If the lockdown is going to cause x number of deaths and covid is going to cause y number of deaths, where x > y then there is a compelling argument against a lockdown in those regions.
The wider world should do whatever it can to offset the food shortage and support the health systems to cope with the consequences ...[text shortened]... effort from a world wrapped up in its own lockdown’s and covid trauma but morally it’s a no brainer.
I'd suggest the cost of the lock down goes beyond stay in the house ,and we'll be fine...and the killing joke, is second wave infection. We could all lock down with all the negatives that entails, and next month it could come right back. Maybe taking the hit is the better option. Maybe fear is overtaking common sense. Overwhelming the health system is a great argument for isolation, so when and how do we return to normal?
@huckleberryhound saidSo an anti lockdown rant and using the starving of the third world as a hook, nice.
Do you know there is more food banks in Scotland than McDonalds? If the British working poor can't work, they starve too. who buys the Big Issue (homeless magazine designed to give the homeless a possible revenue stream...explained for international eyes) when there is no footfall in the high street? That magazine has actually gone into the shops, but the revenue for ...[text shortened]... helming the health system is a great argument for isolation, so when and how do we return to normal?
Food production hasn’t shut down in the uk and I’m guessing hairdressers probably won’t be involved in any international relief effort.
This is a task that will require a UN led effort.
I thought you were asking about the efficacy of a lockdown in a region facing starvation related deaths that would far outstrip covid related deaths, my bad.
@kevcvs57 saidI didn't post to be adversarial. I'm pretty sure the idea of a discussion on the lock down was implicit in my first post. My apologies, i didn't know posting about the problems closer to home would trigger you. What that i wrote was not pertinent to the question asked? should i have added some of the information in my second post to the first one? I get that. Not sure you should imply a motive, the cost of the lock down is part of any "cost benefit analysis". Also "non partisan" was included, you seem to be drawing a line between what can and can't be discussed pretty quick. Not sure that is helpful.
So an anti lockdown rant and using the starving of the third world as a hook, nice.
Food production hasn’t shut down in the uk and I’m guessing hairdressers probably won’t be involved in any international relief effort.
This is a task that will require a UN led effort.
I thought you were asking about the efficacy of a lockdown in a region facing starvation related deaths that would far outstrip covid related deaths, my bad.
You were first to bring the status of the first world into this, i thought info was pertinent...am i wrong?
28 Apr 20
@huckleberryhound saidIf you want to talk about the pros and cons of the lockdown here why send the reader to a report about an upcoming famine in the third world, I’m not sure what the connection is other than the lockdown in the west and other developed regions will probably make it even harder than usual to get a sufficient humanitarian response.
I didn't post to be adversarial. I'm pretty sure the idea of a discussion on the lock down was implicit in my first post. My apologies, i didn't know posting about the problems closer to home would trigger you. What that i wrote was not pertinent to the question asked? should i have added some of the information in my second post to the first one? I get that. Not su ...[text shortened]... e first to bring the status of the first world into this, i thought info was pertinent...am i wrong?
I’m happy to discuss the implications of the lockdown, especially in Scotland because it’s where I live, and I don’t know how many food banks we have exactly, but we have at least two that I know of in my medium sized central belt town. What a lot of people do not appreciate is that you cannot just stroll into one and get food, you have to go through a selection process and access is limited in terms of the number of visits and yes people including children are going hungry as they were before the lockdown and probably / certainly will after the lockdown.
If you want to discuss the inequities of our society I’m your man. I’m just not sure how our lockdown or our needless austerity based poverty is related to the upcoming disaster highlighted in your link.
@kevcvs57 saidOk. You don't think that the recession here will effect the moneys given to Africa, or India? Or the buying power of the west grinding to a halt, isn't that a genuine problem for the developing world? I think it most definitely is. But if we're talking about the lock down, we have to speak about everything, not just isolate certain symptoms. The high street of your city/town has knock on effects for the countries that either depend on our charity, or depend on our purchases for work. These things are not mutually exclusive. Starvation in London is not more acceptable than starvation in India...and for the record...Foodbanks and poverty issues are not a local problem -
If you want to talk about the pros and cons of the lockdown here why send the reader to a report about an upcoming famine in the third world, I’m not sure what the connection is other than the lockdown in the west and other developed regions will probably make it even harder than usual to get a sufficient humanitarian response.
I’m happy to discuss the implications of the l ...[text shortened]... r our needless austerity based poverty is related to the upcoming disaster highlighted in your link.
https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/uk-news/more-food-banks-than-mcdonalds-17374595
The lockdown here will have an effect for the countries that depend on us, and due to it we are going to enter the worst recession of our lifetime...i believe this will compound the problems.
28 Apr 20
@huckleberryhound saidI don’t know if the depression here will effect the monies given to India and Africa, do you mean in terms of private charitable donations? If so then yes I’m sure it will but what’s about to go down in Africa (according to your link) isn’t going to be avoided by anything short of a multinational effort at the governmental level overseen by the UN.
Ok. You don't think that the recession here will effect the moneys given to Africa, or India? Or the buying power of the west grinding to a halt, isn't that a genuine problem for the developing world? I think it most definitely is. But if we're talking about the lock down, we have to speak about everything, not just isolate certain symptoms. The high street of your c ...[text shortened]... are going to enter the worst recession of our lifetime...i believe this will compound the problems.
How many people buy stuff from the high street anymore anyway ? Perhaps the big supermarkets could give the high street based charity shops franchise space in their stores fir the duration of the lockdown.
“ Starvation in London is not more acceptable than starvation in India”
In terms of severity and magnitude I’m pretty sure it is a much bigger issue though.
“...and for the record...Foodbanks and poverty issues are not a local problem -“
It was you that mentioned Scotland and how many food banks we have, like a fool I responded to another question that you weren’t really asking (slaps forehead).
Maybe if you stop pretending to give a toss about the third world and tell us how the lockdown in the west is affecting you we can get on with pretending to empathise with you.
28 Apr 20
@huckleberryhound saidIn the U.K. there are overwhelmingly more resources than needed to prevent starvation and malnutrition - Covid-19 doesn't change this. To the extent that malnutrition is present, it is a political choice.
Ok. You don't think that the recession here will effect the moneys given to Africa, or India? Or the buying power of the west grinding to a halt, isn't that a genuine problem for the developing world? I think it most definitely is. But if we're talking about the lock down, we have to speak about everything, not just isolate certain symptoms. The high street of your c ...[text shortened]... are going to enter the worst recession of our lifetime...i believe this will compound the problems.
The kind of aid asked by the World Food Programme is peanuts, no kind of recession would prevent wealthy nations from providing it without compromising their own response to Covid-19.
28 Apr 20
Jesus, the conservatives just can't stop their fear parade. As someone said, that 265 million is those 'at risk', not how many WILL die. They also keep saying this will spin the whole world into recession as well. These things are much more likely if the rich people on the planet sit on their hands and do nothing, instead of pitching in. These are world issues, and so we must all pitch in where we can, but of course, we know that the very people screaming "Fire!" in this crowded theater are the ones most able to help avoid that. I'm talking about the rich people and the rich countries thinking only of themselves, as usual. Stop screaming and start rolling up your sleeves and help get something done. Those with less money can concentrate on local issues while those with more can extend their reach. Crying in your beer about how much money you stand to lose doesn't help anyone.
28 Apr 20
@suzianne saidI should have changed the question to "is it possible to have a non partisan argument about the lock down, at least we would get a definitive answer...No.
Jesus, the conservatives just can't stop their fear parade. As someone said, that 265 million is those 'at risk', not how many WILL die. They also keep saying this will spin the whole world into recession as well. These things are much more likely if the rich people on the planet sit on their hands and do nothing, instead of pitching in. These are world issues, and so we ...[text shortened]... extend their reach. Crying in your beer about how much money you stand to lose doesn't help anyone.
28 Apr 20
@huckleberryhound saidHere is the non-partisan answer: hope that the politicians that were put in charge listen to the experts who are in the best position to gauge the pros and cons of measures aimed at containing the virus. End of story.
I should have changed the question to "is it possible to have a non partisan argument about the lock down, at least we would get a definitive answer...No.
28 Apr 20
@huckleberryhound saidNo it’s definitely possible to have a non partisan discussion but in order to do that you / we have to recognise that we are partisan and try to compensate for that partisanship.
I should have changed the question to "is it possible to have a non partisan argument about the lock down, at least we would get a definitive answer...No.
No offence but I’m pretty sure you began this thread with your own partisan position firmly entrenched.
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28 Apr 20
@kazetnagorra saidThat's right, listen to the experts...ignore the will of the people. The "Intellectuals" know what is best for its children. The elected political leader is to be seen and not heard. They experts are the true masters of manipulating public opinion.
Here is the non-partisan answer: hope that the politicians that were put in charge listen to the experts who are in the best position to gauge the pros and cons of measures aimed at containing the virus. End of story.