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Originally posted by RedmikeSo do you mean to say that you believe in something that you claim not to know? But I do claim to believe in God because I also claim that I know he exists.
No. An atheist is someone who believes there is no god.
You can't know there's no god, just as you can't know there is a god.
Originally posted by dj2beckerHang on, let me get comfortable, I'm just dying to hear how these 100% accurate prophecies happen.
O.K. You are an agnostic. So you don't know if there is or isn't a God? You say that you also went to church? Would you like to explain to me how the prophecies of the Old Testament are fulfilled in the New? The Bible is unique in that way and only God can make prophecies that are 100% accurate. Would you like to explain to me how that could be done if there is no God?
Okay, ready, let me have it.
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Originally posted by dj2beckerActually there are two types of agnostics. The first type do not know if there is a God or not. The second type, the type I am, believes that is impossible to know for sure either way.
O.K. You are an agnostic. So you don't know if there is or isn't a God? You say that you also went to church? Would you like to explain to me how the prophecies of the Old Testament are fulfilled in the New? The Bible is unique in that ...[text shortened]... like to explain to me how that could be done if there is no God?
Say I write a book. And in this book, near the beginning, I make predictions about what is going to happen at the end of the book. They turn out to be right. Does that mean I am able to predict the future?
OK I admit that is a bit of an unfair analogy. Mostly I included it for comedy value.
I don't claim, and never have, to have all the answers. I don't know why some things happen or others don't. I don't know why predictions in the OT come true in the NT (I don't actually know if there are any predictions). There are probably a number of factors at work. None of which I claim to understand. However I do know that just because of those predictions I cannot believe that there must be a God.
Originally posted by dj2beckerYes, if you like.
So do you mean to say that you believe in something that you claim not to know? But I do claim to believe in God because I also claim that I know he exists.
I can't prove the non-existence of god. I accept that. I choose to believe there is no god.
Just like I can't prove the non-existence of unicorns, or leprechauns. I still believe they don't exist.
Originally posted by dj2becker1. No
Q: Do you know everything there is to know?
A: No.
Q: Do you know half of everything there is to know?
A: No.
Q: Have you ever thought of the possibility that God may exist in the other half that you don't know about?
A: No...
2. No
3. Yes, I have thought about the possibility that god may exist, but I see no evidence to support the claim. Therefore I do not believe in god.
Your understanding of atheism is woefully inadequate. I refer you to the "concept of sin" thread where this very topic has been dealt with in excruciating detail recently. I don't feel like recapsulating the entire debate here for your benefit.
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Originally posted by RedmikeSo what would you accept as proof that there is a God? I suppose if someone were to be raised from the dead and testify that he has seen God then you would still not believe it? And if many people have had near death experiences which relate to something very similar you would still not believe it?
Yes, if you like.
I can't prove the non-existence of god. I accept that. I choose to believe there is no god.
Just like I can't prove the non-existence of unicorns, or leprechauns. I still believe they don't exist.
Originally posted by dj2beckerDoes it not say in the bible something about not seeing God's image? My memory is a little hazy but I'm sure that's in there somewhere.
So what would you accept as proof that there is a God? I suppose if someone were to be raised from the dead and testify that he has seen God then you would still not believe it? And if many people have had near death experiences which relate to something very similar you would still not believe it?
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Originally posted by rwingettThe Bible doesn't attempt to prove that God exists. It simply speaks as though He does. Maybe I can't prove to you there is a God, but I can introduce Him to you through His Son Jesus Christ and you can judge for yourself if the Words of Christ in the Bible convince you of His existence.
1. No
2. No
3. Yes, I have thought about the possibility that god may exist, but I see no evidence to support the claim. Therefore I do not believe in god.
Your understanding of atheism is woefully inadequate. I refer you to the "concept of sin" thread where this very topic has been dealt with in excruciating detail recently. I don't feel like recapsulating the entire debate here for your benefit.
Originally posted by dj2beckerBut no one has been raised from the dead. People that have near death experiences are absolutely useless as witnesses to the presence of god as:
So what would you accept as proof that there is a God? I suppose if someone were to be raised from the dead and testify that he has seen God then you would still not believe it? And if many people have had near death experiences which relate to something very similar you would still not believe it?
1) They are in a state of incapacity both physically and mentally and it is unlikely they have any control over conscious thought processes.
2) They are often under the effects of trauma or drugs/anisthetics leading to a mental state far removed from normality.
3) They may be lying, I know if I'd "died" for a small period of time then I would love to tell fishermans stories about it. Not to say that everyone who says so is a liar, I am sure many are truthful when they say it has happened to them. On the whole it is their perception/memories of the events that are in question.
4) Quite apart from this, there is no evidence in this to support god anyway, all it does is say:
"I saw God!"
"How did you know it was god?"
"If you'd seen him, you'd know too"
This is not evidence for anyone except the person who thinks they saw god, whether they did or not, perhaps not even they can know.
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Originally posted by StarrmanO.K. Starman this is for you:
Hang on, let me get comfortable, I'm just dying to hear how these 100% accurate prophecies happen.
Okay, ready, let me have it.
Some of the more interesting and surprising statements about the Messiah in the Old Testtament are those concerning His lineage. Contrary to what some might claim, there are very specific prophecies about this, each of which Jesus fulfilled. In talking to the serpent in Genesis 3:15, God said, “I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring. He will bruise your head, and you will bruise his heel.” This is taken by many as one of the earliest Messianic prophecies describing Satan’s brief vicory over Messiah and Messiah’s ultimate victory over Satan. It is mentioned here because the offspring (Messiah) is described as being of the woman (Eve). This is extraordinary as the nation of Israel has always been patriarchal; people are mentioned in terms of their fathers, not their mothers. Because of this, many see this verse as also being a prophecy of Messiah’s birth through a virgin (see below). Bearing this in mind, it is interesting to study what the Apostle Paul wrote in Galatians 4:4, again referring to the sending of a Son through a woman.
The Bible makes note of several other aspects of the earthly bloodline the Messiah will come from. In Genesis 12:3, God is making a promise to Abram (later, Abraham) about the influence his descendants will have over the earth and says, “In you will all of the families of the earth be blessed.” This is accepted as a statement that the Messiah would descend from Abraham as Messiah is the source of all true blessings. The bloodline is further refined to Isaac, son of Abraham in Genesis 17:19 and 21:12, to Jacob, son of Isaac in 28:14 and to Judah, son of Jacob (or Israel) in 49:10. Matthew, in the first chapter of his Gospel, begins his account of the life of Jesus by describing His lineage as coming from Abraham to Isaac to Jacob to Judah and so on. Luke echos this lineage for Jesus in Luke 3:33-34.
Building on the specificity of Messiah’s lineage, God promises King David, through Nathan the prophet in 2 Samuel 7:12-13, that Messiah will not only come from his own bloodline, but will also inherit his throne. David’s throne is again promised as the seat of Messiah’s government in Isaiah 9:6-7, and in Jeremiah 23:5. Taking a look at the accounts of Jesus shows Him to be a descendant of King David in Matthew 1:1, 1:6 and in Luke 3:31. He is further described as heir to David’s throne with power by Paul in Romans 1:3-4. It is important to remember here that Paul was once a Pharisee, which in his time meant that he possessed a strong knowledge and understanding of the Old Testament. For him to claim Jesus as the foretold Messiah, was no small admission. The Jewish leaders, his ex-companions, were very clear on Paul’s position; they repeatedly tried to kill him for it (study the latter half of the book of Acts).
Probably the most important claim the Old Testament makes about Messiah is that He is truly God. These claims are made in the form of ascribing God’s traits to Messiah and describing Messiah as God’s Son. One aspect of God is that He is eternal. The prophet Micah tells us in Micah 5:2 that the Messiah Himself is eternal when he, talking about Messiah, says, “...whose goings forth are from of old, from everlasting.” Compare this to the claim of eternality Jesus made in the New Testament in John 8:58. Paul describes many attributes of Jesus which indicate an eternal Messiah in Ephesians 1:3-14 and in Colossians 1:15-19.
Another aspect of the Messiah is that He is the true and only Son of God, being Himself God. The writers of Psalms and Proverbs make this link for us in Psalms 2:7 and Proverbs 30:4. In Luke 1:32, an angel of God is telling Mary that she is about to become the mother of Jesus and says to her, “He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give to him the throne of his father, David.” In Matthew 3:17, God Himself speaks at the baptism of Jesus and says of Him, “This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”
The Old Testament gets even clearer about the fact that Messiah is God, that God Himself will be the Messiah, that the name of the Messiah is Y-H-W-H. Read the description of Messiah in Isaiah 9:6. There we read of a Son who will be given to govern the world. Of the five names listed that the Messiah will be known by, note that one of them is Mighty God. The prophet Jeremiah is even more blatant about applying the name of God to the Messiah in Jeremiah 23:6. Of course, the question is, does the Bible apply God’s name to Jesus? Noting that the name Y-H-W-H is above any other name in authority, read what Paul wrote about Jesus in Philippians 2:9. There he writes that God gave Jesus “the name which is above every name.”
Jewish scholars have little doubt about the deity of the Messiah, but many people have a hard time accepting that Jesus is God. A more in depth discussion as to the deity of Jesus may be found here.
The Old Testament also describes several things the Messiah will do while here on earth. In Deuteronomy 18:15, Moses is addressing the people of Israel, and tells them, “Yahweh your God will raise up to you a prophet from the midst of you, of your brothers, like me; to him you shall listen” identifying the Messiah as being a prophet just like Moses was. God assures us that it is the Messiah of whom Moses was speaking in verses 18-19 by the seriousness God places on those who will not listen to the coming prophet. Taking a look at the New Testament, John tells us in John 7:40 that many Jews who heard Jesus really believed that He was the prophet Moses mentioned. Also, Luke quotes the words of the Apostle Peter in Acts 3:19-22 who confirmed by his direct witness of Jesus that He was, in fact, the prophet Moses said was coming.
Isaiah describes in Isaiah 61:1-2 some aspects of the ministry the Messiah will have. Compare this to the passage in Luke 4:18 where Jesus not only quotes the Old Testament passage but also claims to be its fulfillment. An in-depth study of the ministry of Jesus throughout the gospels reveals this as truth, and not just some idle boast. More specifically, Isaiah 35:5-6, describes a wonderful ministry of healing for any who need it. Jesus describes the works He has done in almost the exact same words in Matthew 11:5. Over and over and over again, all throughout the gospels, Jesus never turned away anyone who needed healing, even when He knew they would not turn to Him (note His healing of the ten lepers in Luke 17:12-19 though only one returned to give glory to God). All this for the deep love He feels for each one of them, and each one of us. He healed us even at the cost of His own life.
Isaiah also tells us in Isaiah 9:1 that Messiah’s ministry would begin in the region of Galilee. All the gospels confirm to us that Jesus also began His ministry in Galilee. In Matthew 4:12-17, Matthew goes so far as to claim that Jesus did so as direct fulfillment of the prophecy in Isaiah 9:1.
In the Old Testament, there are many places where the character of Messiah is described. We see the same character traits exhibited by Jesus in the New Testament. In verses 40:11 and 42:3 of his book, Isaiah describes Messiah as demonstrating tenderness and compassion and in verse 12:15 of his gospel, Matthew says the same of Jesus when he relates that “Great multitudes followed Him, and He healed them all.” As Matthew continues his narration, he even claims that what he is relating is the fulfillment of Isaiah’s prophecy of verse 42:3. The Apostle Peter goes farther and claims that Jesus is completely without sin in 1 Peter 2:22 and that, by quoting it, this fulfills Isaiah 53:9.
The Bible documents many more such parallels between the traits and actions of the Messiah and of Jesus.
The Messiah must... Prophecy Fulfillment by Jesus
Bear the reproaches and sin of others Isaiah 53:12 Romans 15:3
Be a priest Psalms 110:4 Hebrews 5:5-6, 6:20, 7:15-17
Enter Jerusalem on a donkey Zechariah 9:9 Matthew 21:1-11; Mark 11:1-11; John 12:12-16
Enter the Temple with authority Malachi 3:1 Matthew 21:12; John 2:13-22
These are only a few of the prophecies about the things the Messiah will do from the Old Testament along with the descriptions of how Jesus fulfilled them. But, since a determined faker could try to mimic the prophecies about what the Messiah will do, let’s have a look at prophecies which no human could bring off.
What Will Be Done To Messiah
The Old Testament speaks even more about the things which will be done to Messiah and things about His life over which no ordinary human could have any control. These are important to understand as most of them would be impossible for a false Messiah to fake since they would be out of a normal person’s control. God loves us so much that He has given us the things to look for in Messiah in such a way that He cannot be impersonated successfully as long as we pay attention. These things make it quite clear that Jesus is the Messiah foretold by the Old Testament.
One of the first things to note in the Old Testament is that God tells us exactly when Messiah would come to earth. In Daniel 9:24-26, he gives us a total of 69 “weeks” (a euphamism of the day meaning a period of 7 years) or 483 years after Jerusalem and its wall were commissioned to be rebuilt for when the Messiah would be ”cut off” for our sins. The best archaeological evidence dates the rebuilding of Jerusalem at approximately 453 B.C. Four hundred and eighty three years after the city was rebuilt, Jesus was being crucified outside its walls. We are given the historical information we need to accurately place Jesus’ birth in Matthew 2:1, 16 and 19 and Luke 3:1 and we know He was crucified 33 years later.
I'll continue on the nest post...
Originally posted by dj2beckerYou are the one making the claim that god exists. If you want me to believe it you have to introduce some compelling evidence to help substantiate your claim. I you fail to do so, then I have no choice except to withhold belief from your claim. I will act as though your claim is not true. I do not accept the bible as compelling evidence. In fact, it can be claimed that the bible itself actually hurts your case.
The Bible doesn't attempt to prove that God exists. It simply speaks as though He does. Maybe I can't prove to you there is a God, but I can introduce Him to you through His Son Jesus Christ and you can judge for yourself if the Words of Christ in the Bible convince you of His existence.
Originally posted by dj2beckerThe predictions you give are hazy at best and utter rubbish at worst.
O.K. Starman this is for you:
Some of the more interesting and surprising statements about the Messiah in the Old Testtament are those concerning His lineage. Contrary to what some might claim, there are very specific prophecies about this, each of which Jesus fulfilled. In talking to the serpent in Genesis 3:15, God said, “I will put enmity between y ...[text shortened]... bout Messiah can be found in Isaiah 7:14 where we are told that He will be born of a virgin. Th
"This is accepted as a statement that" is not a prediction. It's an interpretation of previous writings based on later events.
Originally posted by dj2beckercut and paste, cut and paste. Nobody's going to waste their time reading all this rubbish. Where did you copy it from?
O.K. Starman this is for you:
Some of the more interesting and surprising statements about the Messiah in the Old Testtament are those concerning His lineage. Contrary to what some might claim, there are very specific prophecies about this, each of which Jesus fulfilled. In talking to the serpent in Genesis 3:15, God said, “I will put enmity between y ...[text shortened]... and Luke 3:1 and we know He was crucified 33 years later.
I'll continue on the nest post...