Originally posted by dj2beckerIt's spelled "atheist", not "athiest".
Q: Do you know everything there is to know?
A: No.
Q: Do you know half of everything there is to know?
A: No.
Q: Have you ever thought of the possibility that God may exist in the other half that you don't know about?
A: No...
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Originally posted by rwingettIf there is no God as you say, then in the end I lose nothing. But if there is a God like I say, in the end you lose everything. Let me also ask you what you would accept as evidence of his existance?
You are the one making the claim that god exists. If you want me to believe it you have to introduce some compelling evidence to help substantiate your claim. I you fail to do so, then I have no choice except to withhold belief from your claim. I will act as though your claim is not true. I do not accept the bible as compelling evidence. In fact, it can be claimed that the bible itself actually hurts your case.
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Sorry Starman, here's the rest of it:
Another trait about Messiah can be found in Isaiah 7:14 where we are told that He will be born of a virgin. There are many who contest the use of the word ”virgin” as the original Hebrew word simply means “young woman.” However, the context of the usage of this word all throughout the rest of the Old Testament provides the connotation of an “unsullied reputation.” Further proof of this lies in the Greek word chosen by the Jewish scholars who created the Septuagint (the original Greek Old Testament) written 200 years before Jesus was even born. They chose the greek word parthenos which really does mean virgin. Matthew uses this word when he quotes Isaiah in Matthew 1:23. The declaration of Jesus being born of a virgin may be found in Matthew 1:18-Matthew 2:1 and in Luke 1:26-35.
We are also promised a messenger, one who would come before the Messiah to announce His arrival. Read what Isaiah wrote in Isaiah 40:3-5 and what Malachi wrote in Malachi 3:1. Both are statements of this promise from God. In the New Testament, Matthew records the claim that John the Baptizer made that he was this messenger fortold by Isaiah. John the Baptizer even quotes the Old Testament prophet in Matthew 3:1-3. Luke records in his gospel in chapter 1, verse 17 the words of an angel speaking to John’s father saying the same thing. Luke reiterates John as the fulfillment of Isaiah in Luke 3:2-6.
At the other end of His earthly ministry, we are given several details about His execution. The Old Testament tells us that He will be “pierced.” The prophet Zechariah associates this with the death of the Messiah in 12:10 and Psalms 22:16 tells us that this piercing will be in the Messiah’s hands and feet. In Matthew 27:35 and John 19:18, we are told that Jesus is executed by crucifiction, which requires the piercing of the hands and feet. Luke confirms in 24:39 the piercing really did happen by asking His disciples to inspect the holes after His resurrection. John even claims this as fulfillment of Zechariah 12:10 in John 19:34-37.
Despite the cruel nature of His execution, we are promised that none of the Messiah’s bones would be broken. In the Law of Moses, we are told that the Passover lamb should not have any of its bones broken (see Exodus 12:46 and Numbers 9:12). Since the Messiah is the ultimate Passover Lamb whose blood protects the doorposts of our hearts, then His bones must remain unbroken as well. This is reiterated in Psalms 34:20. In John 19:33-36 we are told how the Roman soldiers did not need to break any of Jesus’ bones and that this was in direct fulfillment of the Scripture.
We are promised that, after His death, Messiah will be raised from the dead in Psalms 16:10 with support from Isaiah 53:9-10 and Psalms 2:7. The descriptions of the resurrection of Jesus are found in Matthew 28:1-20 and Acts 2:23-36 and 13:33-37 which quotes Psalms 2:7.
The Bible also promises that, after His resurrection, Messiah would ascend to heaven and sit at the right hand of God. The promise is found in Psalms 16:11, 68:18 and 110:1 and Jesus is described as fulfilling this in Luke 24:51, Acts 1:9-11 and 7:55 and Hebrews 1:3.
Below is a table which lists more things which are true of Messiah. Read the Old Testament verses in their contexts and compare them with the New Testament descriptions of how Jesus fulfilled each and every one of them.
The Messiah must... Prophecy Fulfillment by Jesus
Be born in Bethlehem Micah 5:2 Matthew 2:1; Luke 2:4-7
Be adored by great persons Psalms 72:10-11 Matthew 2:1-11
Be annointed with the Spirit of God Isaiah 11:2, 61:1 Matthew 3:16; John 3:34; Acts 10:38
Be hated without cause Isaiah 49:7; Psalms 69:4 John 15:24-25
Be undesired and rejected by His own people Isaiah 53:2, 63:3; Psalms 69:8 Mark 6:3; Luke 9:58; John 1:11,
Be plotted against by Jews and Gentiles together Psalms 2:1-2 Acts 4:27
Be betrayed by a friend Psalms 41:9, 55:12-24 Matthew 26:21-25, 47-50; John 13:18-21; Acts 1:16-18
Be betrayed for 30 pieces of silver Zechariah 11:12 Matthew 26:16
Have his price given for a potter’s field Zechariah 11:13 Matthew 27:7
Be forsaken by His disciples Zechariah 13:7 Matthew 26:31, 56
Be struck on the cheek Micah 5:1 Matthew 27:30
Be spat on Isaiah 50:6 Matthew 26:67, 27:30
Be mocked Psalms 22:7-8 Matthew 27:31, 39-44
Be beaten Isaiah 50:6 Matthew 26:67, 27:26, 30
Be thirsty during His execution Psalms 22:15 John 19:28
Be given vinegar to quench that thirst Psalms 69:21 Matthew 27:34
Be considered a transgressor Isaiah 53:12 Matthew 27:38
Be buried with the rich when dead Isaiah 53:9 Matthew 27:57-60
Be sought after by Gentiles as well as Jews Isaiah 11:10, 42:1 Acts 10:45
Be accepted by the Gentiles Isaiah 11:10, 42:1-4, 49:1-12 Matthew 12:21; Acts 10:45; Romans 15:9-12
As described above, there is a significant amount of biblical evidence which can lead us to only one conclusion. Jesus is the Messiah. He claimed it. It was claimed by others of Him. But more importantly, He demonstrated it by His fulfillment of every messianic prophecy we know of, leaving no room for doubt. The mathematical probability that a person could fulfill even the prophecies listed here is astronomical, yet Jesus did it.
To get a feel for the probabilities involved, consider this. An author and speaker named Josh McDowell calculated the odds of Jesus fulfilling only eight of the Messianic prophecies as 1 out of 1017 (a one followed by 17 zeros). This is equivalent to covering the entire state of Texas with silver dollars two feet deep, marking one of them, mixing them all up and having a blind-folded person select the marked one at random the first time.
Only a few of the Messianic prophecies in the Bible have been presented here. There are many more, not even including the ones (mostly from the book of Revelation which are still outstainding (have not been fulfilled yet).
Originally posted by dj2beckerThis is the reason that I am agnostic. However, becker, if one holds the personal opinion that there is no higher power (i.e. God or gods)then they are an atheist regardless of what can be proven or what can't be proven.
An atheist is someone who says he knows there is no God. But you can't know that for sure, because you would have to know all things in order to know if there is or isn't a God. If you knew all things then you would be God. So, the only thing you could be is an agnostic, not an atheist. An agnostic says he doesn't know if there is or isn't a God.
An -ism can be a theory by definition...
Originally posted by dj2beckerWith all due respect, I don't think your post carries much weight. You are referring to what was written in the Old Testament coming to light as being "real" in the New Testament. This is also based on the presumption that you take the Bible as factual face value which many of us do not. Personally I don't think it was written by many authors or what not over the centuries. The Old Testament and the New Testament are in the same "book" known as the Bible, right? Your post would hold water more if the Bible were something more like what people believed Nostradamus wrote. Example, if in any of the books of the Bible there was written words to the effect "Centuries from now, large metallic birds carrying My children will explode into two newer versions of the Tower of Babel" (This is my attempt to prophetize 9/11) then I think you might be on to something.
O.K. Starman this is for you:
Some of the more interesting and surprising statements about the Messiah in the Old Testtament are those concerning His lineage. Contrary to what some might claim, there are very specific prophecies about this, each of which Jesus fulfilled. In talking to the serpent in Genesis 3:15, God said, “I will put enmity between y ...[text shortened]... bout Messiah can be found in Isaiah 7:14 where we are told that He will be born of a virgin. Th
Originally posted by dj2beckerDon't bring up Pascal's wager as a reason to believe in God. That's just ridiculous.
If there is no God as you say, then in the end I lose nothing. But if there is a God like I say, in the end you lose everything. Let me also ask you what you would accept as evidence of his existance?
I don't think anything could convince me fully of God's existance.
Originally posted by dj2beckerAll these "proofs" are based on the fact that Bible is an accurate, infallible and reliable source of history which most people know is not the case at all. That is also the error in many of Prof. McDowell's claims against othe religions in his book "A Ready Defense". He uses a scientific criteria to attempt to disprove non-Christian religions yet fails to recognize the same flaws is his own faith and in his own Doctrine. A real hack, if you ask me.
Sorry Starman, here's the rest of it:
Another trait about Messiah can be found in Isaiah 7:14 where we are told that He will be born of a virgin. There are many who contest the use of the word ”virgin” as the original Hebrew word sim ...[text shortened]... on which are still outstainding (have not been fulfilled yet).
Originally posted by dj2beckerActually, you lose a lot if you believe in God and he doesn't exist. You've lived your entire life according to the rules of someone, who, it turns out, doesn't have the power to get you into Heaven because they didn't exist in the first place. Some of these rules are extremely restrictive, and many force you to behave in a way that directly contradicts your being.
If there is no God as you say, then in the end I lose nothing. But if there is a God like I say, in the end you lose everything. Let me also ask you what you would accept as evidence of his existance?
What if you believe in God and you're gay? If it turns out in the end that God doesn't exist, haven't you spent a life of guilt for nothing?
Originally posted by kyngjTo me this is one of the most compelling arguements as to why the Bible falls short:
Actually, you lose a lot if you believe in God and he doesn't exist. You've lived your entire life according to the rules of someone, who, it turns out, doesn't have the power to get you into Heaven because they didn't exist in the first ...[text shortened]... od doesn't exist, haven't you spent a life of guilt for nothing?
For the record, I am not gay but I could careless how an individual lives. I do not think homosexuality is wrong (and I know dj2becker is quick on the draw to find the verse that tells me it is) but what blows my mind is for all the good ideas the Bible does contain (be good to people, don't kill or steal, don't lie, etc) they also thought, "Oh Yeah, we had better write off the fags and dykes too just to cover all bases"? To me that is just crazy. If this God is truly a loving God then why should He care who a person beds down with?
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Originally posted by Joe FistO.K. I'll give you ten reasons why you can believe the Bible:
With all due respect, I don't think your post carries much weight. You are referring to what was written in the Old Testament coming to light as being "real" in the New Testament. This is also based on the presumption that you take the Bible as factual face value which many of us do not. Personally I don't think it was written by many authors or what ...[text shortened]... of Babel" (This is my attempt to prophetize 9/11) then I think you might be on to something.
Its Honesty
The Bible is painfully honest. It shows Jacob, the father of its "chosen people," to be a deceiver. It describes Moses, the lawgiver, as an insecure, reluctant leader, who, in his first attempt to come to the aid of his own people, killed a man, and then ran for life to the desert. It portrays David not only as Israel's most loved king, general, and spiritual leader, but as one who took another man's wife and then, to cover his own sin, conspired to have her husband killed. At one point, the Scriptures accuse the people of God, the nation of Israel, as being so bad they made Sodom and Gomorrah look good by comparison ( Ezekiel 16:46-52). The Bible represents human nature as hostile to God. It predicts a future full of trouble. It teaches that the road to heaven is narrow and the way to hell is wide. Scripture was clearly not written for those who want simple answers or an easy, optimistic view of religion and human nature.
Its Preservation
Just as the modern state of Israel was emerging from thousands of years of dispersion, a bedouin shepherd discovered one of the most important archeological treasures of our time. In a cave of the northwest rim of the Dead Sea, a broken jar yielded documents that had been hidden for two millennia. Additional finds produced manuscripts that predated previous oldest copies by 1,000 years. One of the most important was a copy of Isaiah. It revealed a document that is essentially the same as the book of Isaiah that appears in our own Bibles. The Dead Sea scrolls emerged from the dust like a symbolic handshake to a nation coming home. They discredited the claims of those who believed that the original Bible had been lost to time and tampering.
Its Claims For Itself
It's important to know what the Bible says about itself. If the authors of Scripture had not claimed to speak for God, it would be presumptuous for us to make that claim for them. We would also have a different kind of problem. We would have a collection of unsolved mysteries, embodied in historical and ethical literature. But we would not have a book that has inspired the building of countless churches and synagogues all over the world. A Bible that did not claim to speak on behalf of God would not have become foundational to the faith of hundreds of millions of Christians and Jews (2 Peter 1:16-21). But with much supporting evidence and argument, the Bible's authors did claim to be inspired by God. Because millions have staked their present and eternal well-being on those claims, the Bible cannot be a good book if its authors consistently lied about their source of information.
Its Miracles
Israel's exodus from Egypt provided a historical basis for believing that God revealed Himself to Israel. If the Red Sea did not part as Moses said it did, the Old Testament loses its authority to speak on behalf of God. The New Testament is just as dependent upon miracles. If Jesus did not rise bodily from the dead, the apostle Paul admits that the Christian faith is built on a lie (1 Corinthians 15:14-17). To show its credibility, the New Testament names its witnesses, and did so within a time-frame that enabled those claims to be tested (1 Corinthians 15:1-8). Many of the witnesses ended up as martyrs, not for abstract moral or spiritual convictions but for their claim that Jesus had risen from the dead. While martyrdom is not unusual, the basis on which these people gave their lives is what's important. Many have died for what they believed to be the truth. But people do not die for what they know to be a lie.
Its Unity
Forty different authors writing over a period of 1,600 years penned the 66 books of the Bible. Four hundred silent years separated the 39 books of the Old Testament from the 27 of the New Testament. Yet, from Genesis to Revelation, they tell one unfolding story. Together they give consistent answers to the most important questions we can ask: Why are we here? How can we come to terms with our fears? How can we get along? How can we rise above our circumstances and keep hope alive? How can we make peace with our Maker? The Bible's consistent answers to these questions show that the Scriptures are not many books but one.
Its Historical And Geographical Accuracy
Down through the ages, many have doubted the historical and geographical accuracy of the Bible. Yet modern archeologists have repeatedly unearthed evidence of the people, places, and cultures described in the Scriptures. Time after time, the descriptions in the biblical record have been shown to be more reliable than the speculations of scholars. The modern visitor to the museums and lands of the Bible cannot help but come away impressed with the real geographical and historical backdrop of the biblical text.
Its Endorsement By Christ
Many have spoken well of the Bible, but no endorsement is as compelling as that of Jesus of Nazareth. He recommended the Bible not only by His words but by His life. In times of personal temptation, public teaching, and personal suffering, He made it clear that He believed the Old Testament Scriptures were more than a national tradition ( Matthew 4:1-11; 5:17-19). He believed the Bible was a book about Himself. To His countrymen He said, "You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life" (John 5:39-40).
Its Prophetic Accuracy
From the days of Moses, the Bible predicted events no one wanted to believe. Before Israel went into the Promised Land, Moses predicted that Israel would be unfaithful, that she would lose the land God was giving her, and that she would be dispersed throughout all the world, regathered, and then re-established ( (Deuteronomy 28-31). Central to Old Testament prophecy was the promise of a Messiah who would save God's people from their sins and eventually bring judgment and peace to the whole world.
Its Survival
The books of Moses were written 500 years before the earliest Hindu Scriptures. Moses wrote Genesis 2,000 years before Muhammad penned the Koran. During that long history, no other book has been as loved or as hated as the Bible. No other book has been so consistently bought, studied, and quoted as this book. While millions of other titles come and go, the Bible is still the book by which all other books are measured. While often ignored by those who are uncomfortable with its teachings, it is still the central book of Western civilization.
Its Power To Change Lives
Unbelievers often point to those who claim to believe in the Bible without being changed by it. But history is also marked by those who have been bettered by this book. The Ten Commandments have been a source of moral direction to countless numbers of people. The Psalms of David have offered comfort in times of trouble and loss. Jesus' Sermon on the Mount has given millions an antidote for stubborn pride and proud legalism. Paul's description of love in 1 Corinthians 13 has softened angry hearts. The changed lives of people like the apostle Paul, Augustine, Martin Luther, John Newton, Leo Tolstoy, and C. S. Lewis illustrate the difference the Bible can make. Even entire nations or tribes, like the Celts of Ireland, the wild Vikings of Norway, or the Auca Indians of Ecuador have been transformed by the Word of God and the unprecedented life and significance of Jesus Christ.
Originally posted by dj2beckerPlease cite the source which you copy and pasted this from. If you're not clever enough to come up with your own thoughts at least have the gall to acknowledge someone who does.
O.K. I'll give you ten reasons why you can believe the Bible:
Its Honesty
The Bible is painfully honest. It shows Jacob, the father of its "chosen people," to be a deceiver. It describes Moses, the lawgiver, as an insecure, relu ...[text shortened]... and the unprecedented life and significance of Jesus Christ.
Originally posted by dj2beckerIt's not a matter of desire or not.
Why don't you believe in God? Is their any reason for you to intelligently reject His existence? Or, do you simply desire not to believe in Him?
Do you believe in fairies at the bottom of your garden? If not, is it because you desire not to believe?
Or do you believe regardless based on the fact that you cannot prove that they do not exist (after all, you could have just missed them)?
Originally posted by dj2beckerI’m going to tackle your first point which should handle the rest:
O.K. I'll give you ten reasons why you can believe the Bible:
Its Honesty
The Bible is painfully honest. It shows Jacob, the father of its "chosen people," to be a deceiver. It describes Moses, the lawgiver, as an insecure, relu ...[text shortened]... and the unprecedented life and significance of Jesus Christ.
“Its Honesty”
Imagine if I were an alien from another planet given the ability to comprehend and speak the English language. Based on that, I would ask the following from your paragraph:
What is this Bible? Who or where is Jacob? Where are these chose people? Who is Moses? Who is David? Where is Israel? (and so far, that’s the only one that can be shown to me without any doubt because it does exist). Where is Sodom? Where is Gomorrah? Who is Ezekiel?
You are using the Bible to prove the accuracy of the Bible. You are not using the physical world around you, actual recorded history, or any other concrete means to prove what you are saying.