Originally posted by Dissident DanMy guess would be that the victims of these atrocities aren't capable of speech. Or conscious thought. Or understanding the term 'Tail', let alone the meaning of 'To Dock'. What is your theory?
How come now one mentioned tail docking or castration (without anesthetic)?[/b]
Why do you have to always have to have a smug comment, instead of actually trying to have an honest discussion?
Sheep most definitely are capable of conscious thought. Just ask anyone who's studied their behavior. They are capable of remebering and recognizing at least 50 human or sheep faces.
Originally posted by StarValleyWyWhat century do you live in? Animals don't have conscious thought...!?!?! Have you ever had a dog???
My guess would be that the victims of these atrocities aren't capable of speech. Or conscious thought. Or understanding the term 'Tail', let alone the meaning of 'To Dock'. What is your theory?
I must say, your thinking in these realms has always been archaic...I just hope that one day you may let go of our stubborness and actually do some unbiased research-- may you be happily enlightened at what you learn. 😵
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Originally posted by steerpikeThe problem is sheep have been genetically bred to have more wrinkled skin so that they produce way more wool than they need...therefore they don't shed easily. In the wild, before human intervention, how did sheep survive without the "kindness" of human sheering? They rubbed against things and that is how they would shed their wool...
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Sheep are sheared each spring, just before they would naturally shed their winter coats.
Perhaps one of the animal experts could have told Shrek the local merino about this? It might have saved him from some trouble as he fo ...[text shortened]... in a night. Natural behaviour though, for any animal in the wild.[/b]
I understand your sentiments, but unfortunately the sheer number of sheep that are used to produce wool does not leave room for kind sheering practices...when you have thousands of sheep to sheer, you need to do it fast...sometimes it is done too early in the season that many sheep even freeze to death...
So, I am curious, are you actually interested in learning the truth about this, or would you like to stick to your ideas of how sheep are raised?....I ask this because if you are interested you can watch videos that will not only horrify you, but hopefully empower, such a concerned individual as yourself, to take some action.
If you are interested, here is the link to a video http://www.woolisbaad.com/ and click on the Shear Terror icon on the left hand side....and yes, I have seen plenty of happy shearing videos too...I am not saying every single farmer is cruel to sheep, I am saying that the *majority* of sheep raised come from intensive production units, where the name of the game is not animal welfare, but financial gain...
Originally posted by Dissident DanSeen the wolf rider scene on Lord Of the Rings? That is pretty close to where Shrek lives. So how come you are talking about factory farming?
Do you really think that they're going to be violent about it in a publicity situation? Shrek obviously has been treated to different conditions than the average sheep.
Shrek must be something of an oddity, because pre-domestication sheep must not have grown that much wool. That would severely hamper their survival.
How come now one mentioned ta ...[text shortened]... d to see and read to be convinced of the suffering of the animals at http://www.factoryfarm.org/
These animals live closer to a natural life than any other domestic animal. Except of course, the farmers protect them from dogs, treat them for parasites when they can find them, and herd them below the snow line in autumn. They also shear them - and eventually they are slaughtered, in a humane way. So why are you selecting this type of farming out over all other types? Isn't this the best way to treat domestic animals?
I think I am wasting my time trying to convince city dwellers a sheep can be given a hair cut without beating it up first. Believe what you like.
Originally posted by SangeetaI have worked with sheep (dag removal - don't ask), lived on farms and have cousins who own farms. I have never worked in a shearing gang but know many who have.
The problem is sheep have been genetically bred to have more wrinkled skin so that they produce way more wool than they need...therefore they don't shed easily. In the wild, before human intervention, how did sheep survive without the "kindness" of human sheering? They rubbed against things and that is how they would shed their wool...
I understand y ...[text shortened]... ensive production units, where the name of the game is not animal welfare, but financial gain...
You mention a web-site. Do you have first hand knowledge of cruelty or do you just believe what you read on the web?
Originally posted by Dissident DanUp to 12 weeks, the use of rubber rings or a surgical iron is considered humane for de-tailing. After that, anaesthesia is required according to MAF regulations. Not sure how painful it is - perhaps ask a circimsised man?
How come now one mentioned tail docking or castration (without anesthetic)?
For the treatment of animals in agriculture, in general, you should find all you need to see and read to be convinced of the suffering of the animals at http://www.factoryfarm.org/
I prefer to get my information from several independent sources and apply scepticism. I suggest you do the same.
Originally posted by steerpikeTaking the tails off dogs does strike me as rather pointless, even if the dog can survive without it. I'm sure the dog would otherwise have got some use out of its tail, for communication if nothing else. Most men who get circumcised do it for religious or medical reasons, but docking the tail off a dog is just cosmetic, unless the tail is badly malformed or damaged in an accident.
Up to 12 weeks, the use of rubber rings or a surgical iron is considered humane for de-tailing. After that, anaesthesia is required according to MAF regulations. Not sure how painful it is - perhaps ask a circimsised man?
I prefer to get my information from several independent sources and apply scepticism. I suggest you do the same.
Originally posted by Dissident DanBecause I am rather smug. And I don't worship animals like you do.
Why do you have to always have to have a smug comment, instead of actually trying to have an honest discussion?
Sheep most definitely are capable of conscious thought. Just ask anyone who's studied their behavior. They are capable of remebering and recognizing at least 50 human or sheep faces.
What is honest about your movement? You won't even admit you are a religion. When you do that, I will stop with the "smug" comments.
I actually put forth a very serious answer to you. It's only because I offend your religion that you consider me to be smug.
That is your problem.
As for sheep... I will grant the point. They are at least as smart as you.
Originally posted by SangeetaLet's see. What century is this? Which calandar? Julian? Or your "animal worship-prethought calendar"? By your reckoning I think you WANT it to be about three thousand years ago. Back in the "good old days" when men were free to worship animals freely without smart-asses like SVW making fun of them.
What century do you live in? Animals don't have conscious thought...!?!?! Have you ever had a dog???
I must say, your thinking in these realms has always been archaic...I just hope that one day you may let go of our stubborness and actually do some unbiased research-- may you be happily enlightened at what you learn. 😵
I don't research whether I have dominion over animals. It is self evident. I can own them and do as I please with them. That is the law, in case you missed it. When was the last time you worked on a farm? Or ran a dairy herd? Or managed a cattle operation?
Enlightenment should be aimed at the future. Not at a return to silly religions that were abandoned a thousand years ago.
People who can be "happily enlightened" are truly frightening. Fools would be a better description.
Originally posted by SangeetaThis really bothers me. My problem is that I know too much... not too little.
I just hope that one day you may let go of our stubborness and actually do some unbiased research-- may you be happily enlightened at what you learn. 😵[/b]
Your goals are to eventually eliminate the right of people to OWN ANIMALS. Do you deny this long term goal?
In learning about your movement (religion?) I evaluated this goal. I simply have chosen to oppose you. Because of the consequences. I happen to enjoy dairy products. If you have your way, it will be illegal to own cows. Or any animal. Farming will be limited to growing plants.
I happen to enjoy eating beef. And chicken and pork. I am not ashamed of being what humans have always been. If you succeed in your long term goals, I will be forced to eat plants or break the law.
I know too much. I am just "different" because I recognize your movement for the zealotry that you own. That makes your very uncomfortable. You plan on winning with emotion and stealth. And here is this guy who has examined you and decided to oppose you. I can see why you will now try to discredit me no end. I would expect nothing less from religious zealots.
But I am patient too. I know you view that as your main strength. You are wrong in this. The longer you go without obtaining "equality for animals"... the more people will be forced to examine you. That will be your downfall. Just like all zealots, you must act quickly or lose over time.
I really think it is time for the general population to examine you guys and decide if they oppose you or support you. You are dangerous. All zealots are.
Originally posted by steerpikeIt was a video, not just text. There is plenty of corroborating media.
I have worked with sheep (dag removal - don't ask), lived on farms and have cousins who own farms. I have never worked in a shearing gang but know many who have.
You mention a web-site. Do you have first hand knowledge of cruelty or do you just believe what you read on the web?
Not only are sheep subject to things such as mulesing (especially in Australia), but many sheep are crowded onto boats to live in their own excrement, densely packed in a extremes of weather to the 3rd-world nations where there are not treated with any semblance of kindness.
Originally posted by Dissident DanThe people who are letting you down are the New Zealand animal rights campaigners. After all, you have 'evidence' of sheep being badly treated. What are local "animals first" people doing?
It was a video, not just text. There is plenty of corroborating media.
The SPCA is running campaigns against battery hens and sow stalls. SAFE are campaigning against lab animals and vivisection - not even in this country. Perhaps you had better set them straight - after all, you have seen a web page and corroborating media, so you obvoiusly know more about what is going on than local activists.
Tell them to stop worrying about hens, pigs and rats - the real victim is the merino! Get them to pull finger - I think they would really welcome some criticism from someone as knowledgable as you. After all, there are 30 million sheep out there being brutally abused in their own backard and they have not noticed - they must be the slow ones in the aninal rights movement.
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Originally posted by steerpikeWell, I have never seen a human shoot another human...but it doesn't mean that murder doesn't exist....the line of reasoning you use is faulty...if we all have to see an injustice physically before we do something to stop it, most non profits wouldn't exist. I trust the sources who are exposing this cruelty...animal welfare organizations have nothing to gain from exposing animal cruelty...these organizations have exposed all sorts of animal cruelties in the past, and eventually things have changed for animals.
I have worked with sheep (dag removal - don't ask), lived on farms and have cousins who own farms. I have never worked in a shearing gang but know many who have.
You mention a web-site. Do you have first hand knowledge of cruelty or do you just believe what you read on the web?
I am happy though to know that the animals in your community aren't treated that way...just because animals in your community are treated well, doesn't mean that all sheep around the world have a wonderful life.