Animals in their natural state

Originally posted by StarValleyWy
I am pointing out to you the concept of Taboo. You have been forbidden from overtly stating "Yes Or No" to the poser i put onto you. I read your training manuals you see. Didn't you?

I want you to know that by following "Taboo" you are proving my point.

The simple way around it is to just say "Yes. We will lock up and imprison animal farmers ...[text shortened]... a big advantage on you there. I was raised in this crap. Takes a bit of doing to overcome taboo.

ok once more then emphasizing the salient features:

they are not ours to use - for food, clothing, entertainment, or experimentation, or for any other reason.

the locking up of animal farmers is a triviality. if they break the law they will be 'locked up'. reread what sangeeta wrote about the pig farmers - they broke the law, so they got zapped (remember though that a couple of decades ago they would have gotten away with 'doing what they pleased'😉

if you are asking whether anyone who farms animals will be locked up, i doubt it. most AR groups are not concerned with the small farmers, expect in specific cruelty cases. their main focus are the big guys. the laws will i believe be altered to prevent or at least minimize cruelty towards creatures in these situations. why? because more and more people are unwilling to accept this sort of thing.

in friendship,
prad

Originally posted by steerpike
The people who are letting you down are the New Zealand animal rights campaigners. After all, you have 'evidence' of sheep being badly treated. What are local "animals first" people doing?
[.................]
Tell them to stop worrying about hens, pigs and rats - the real victim is the merino! Get them to pull finger - I think they would really welcome some criticism from someone as knowledgable as you.

Something smells fishy, like herring.

Originally posted by Dissident Dan
Something smells fishy, like herring.

So something does not fit your conceived notions? I can see you struggling wih that one. A true dissident would be prepared to look at evidence objectively.Are you up to it?

Originally posted by pradtf
so before i continue this discussion with you, i would like to get a couple of things straight since i am confused by the fluctuating nature of your comments.

i acknowledge that you do not condone cruelty because you have said so and some ...[text shortened]... unwarranted assumptions before continuing.

in friendship,
prad

what i don't understand is why you refuse to give any credence to what dissident dan and sangeeta have written regarding the barbaric practises that are widespread in the industry and affect far vaster numbers of sheep than the small operations you are presumably engaged in.

Start with Sangeeta:

The shearing shed must be one of the worst places in the world for cruelty to animals. I have seen shearers punch sheep with their shears or their fists until the sheep's nose bled. I have seen sheep with half their faces shorn off "


Now my small scale experience shows me a sheep can be restrained with little effort, even for a novice like me. I have real trouble believing this comment - sheep are docile and smaller than a shearer - on their backs, they are almost helpless. Note one of the worst places in the world - worse than a slaughter house, a vivisection lab, or an illegal dog fight? For a hair cut taking a few minutes with a shearing comb similar to your hairs dressers clippers?

Dissident Dan seems to believe this too - when he sees a non-violent shearing clip, he decides the animal rights clip must show the true situation.

So tell me again how I should give credence to these two?

As to where the information comes from - I have no idea and it certainly could happen. But a website could also be produced showing organised dog fighting, and cats being set on fire - and i would be just as mischevious to claim this represents pet ownership and call to ban the practice.

If you know the origin of the link - why don't you report it? Animal cruelty is a criminal offfense.

Originally posted by steerpike
[b]what i don't understand is why you refuse to give any credence to what dissident dan and sangeeta have written regarding the barbaric practises that are widespread in the industry and affect far vaster numbers of sheep than the small ...[text shortened]... why don't you report it? Animal cruelty is a criminal offfense.

Aha! I understand what you are saying now...well sort of...I did not say that the shearing shed was awful...an eye witness said that from what he saw, the shearing shed was one of the worst place in the world- he is relating it to his own experience...

I wish farmers were as kind as you...you have to remember that more wool means more money- when you are in a shed with thousands of sheep, you need to sheer quickly and this is wear the cruelty takes place...not on small farms as far as i know...

A really good friend of mine is actively campaigning in Australia to stop the horrendous treatment of sheep and people all over the world are petioning the goverment to stop their cruel treatment. My friend has been there and seen all that we have spoken of, and each time he returns home, he is horrified at what he has seen...if you have any specific questions of him, I can ask him as I will visit with him tomorrow.

Again, as I have said before small farms are not what I am talking about, but large scale farms where money matters not the animal. I hope you can see my point of view, as I can certainly see yours- but perhaps because you wouldn't hurt a sheep, doesn't mean that others don't...

I'll report more after I have spoken to my friend about this...

Originally posted by steerpike
So something does not fit your conceived notions? I can see you struggling wih that one. A true dissident would be prepared to look at evidence objectively.Are you up to it?

I did not say that. I was saying that what you brought up was becoming a distraction from the issue at hand.

-----------------

Do you believe that these videos were fabricated? I know that it can be hard to believe that people would do such things and get away with it, but history is full of crimes as horrible or worse.

Would those espousing rights for nonhuman animals really take it upon themselves to purchase all these animals, the land, and the equipment, set up the scene, and mutilate the animals--not just for the mulesing, but for the boats, trucks, and the 3rd-world unloading docks slaughterhouses?

Mulesing is a practice documented on the web site of Western Australia's Department of Agriculture: http://agspsrv34.agric.wa.gov.au/agency/pubns/farmnote/1996/f04696.htm

Notice that it does not mention any sort of anesthetic or painkiller.

Originally posted by steerpike
So tell me again how I should give credence to these two?

I have no idea and it certainly could happen.

Animal cruelty is a criminal offfense.

quick answers for now in reverse order:

animal cruelty is not a criminal offense when it comes to farm animals in most places because people make money off these animals and the laws accommodate accordingly. you can get away doing stuff to a farm animal that you can't to a domestic pet for instance.


'it certainly could happen' - so that's at least a few steps from 'it doesn't happen'. i see that from your perspective and experience you can state that you haven't seen cruelty of this nature take place and therefore it is more difficult to accept someone else's argument and evidence that not only does it happen but it happens an awful lot.


the issue doesn't boil down to giving credence to dissident dan and sangeeta as much as giving credence to what is being said. it seems a little premature to dismiss animal rights and animal welfare arguments based on an implication of motivated sensationalism by virtue of your personal experience or your dislike for AR. their arguments are not weak:

dissident dan points out that it is unlikely that AR activists would stage these videos and the extensive props just for the purpose of propaganda
sangeeta accepts your experience, but emphasizes that others have documented very different experiences.


i'll present my own points later, because i don't want to 'cut in' on the discussions you are engaged in with the other two (so there is no need to answer this post unless you really want to).

in friendship,
prad

Originally posted by Sangeeta
Aha! I understand what you are saying now...well sort of...I did not say that the shearing shed was awful...an eye witness said that from what he saw, the shearing shed was one of the worst place in the world- he is relating it to his own experience...

I wish farmers were as kind as you...you have to remember that more wool means more money- when you are ...[text shortened]... an that others don't...

I'll report more after I have spoken to my friend about this...

Your friend must live a sheltered life.

I think we are making some progress here. At least you seem to concede it is possible to shear a sheep without bloodshed or violence - just as I believe it is possible for any animal to be abused whenever they come into contact with man.

Our solutions are somewhat different. Since I know the process of shearing can be humane, I would like to see people who are violent towards animals prosecuted where it is cruel and unnecessary and sheep farming to continue.The woolisbaad site calls for a total boycott - no sheep, no wool, nothing. You seem to want small farms - better than big ones.

I would suggest small farms are not the answer. Neglect, and ignorance of suffering are often worse in small farms, while dog attacks are much more common because uncontrolled domestic dogs wander from town fringes.

If your friend finds cruelty, report it. There are animal welfare organisations who will take up the case - if justified.

Originally posted by steerpike
Your friend must live a sheltered life.

I think we are making some progress here. At least you seem to concede it is possible to shear a sheep without bloodshed or violence - just as I believe it is possible for any animal to be abused whenever they come into contact with man.

Our solutions are somewhat different. Since I know the process of shearin ...[text shortened]... ort it. There are animal welfare organisations who will take up the case - if justified.

Your friend must live a sheltered life.
Why are you fighting this so hard to believe this? He helped to start a world wide campaign to stop the horriffic treatment of sheep...he has global support and all you say is that he lives a sheltered life? I am surprised at how difficult you find the possibilty of animal abuse, i must say that you live a very sheltered life if you don't understand the tremendous exploitation of animals all over the world. He has reported it, but the laws in this world are on the side of the abuser, not the abused...however saying this, the laws are changing slowly in favor of animals, but we have a long way to go.

I think we are making some progress here
I have always believed that sheep can be sheered humanely...my protest is against those who exploit sheep in industries....by small farms i mean if someone has a few sheep that they sheer once in a while. I by no means support animal exploitation...

Originally posted by Sangeeta
[b]Your friend must live a sheltered life.
Why are you fighting this so hard to believe this? He helped to start a world wide campaign to stop the horriffic treatment of sheep...he has global support and all you say is that he lives a sheltered life? I am surprised at how difficult you find the possibilty of animal abuse, i must say that you live a v ...[text shortened]... ne has a few sheep that they sheer once in a while. I by no means support animal exploitation...[/b]

an eye witness said that from what he saw, the shearing shed was one of the worst place in the world- he is relating it to his own experience...

.

I only meant if your friends experience had him believe a shearing shed is one of the worst places in the world for animals, I think he needs to look around a bit more before beginning a global crusade. There is certainly cruelty and animal abuse in farming - but I think a shearing shed is the wrong place to start.

Take poultry farming and the battery production system or pig production and sow stalls. But the solution put forward for poulty and pigs - ie free range, unrestricted, outside in a more natural environment, freedom to live in a social group, a life with minimal farmer interference - is how sheep already live.

My point is we are arguing over the treatment of one of the best treated of all farm animals. One who lives closer to a natural life than any other I can think of. I think the campaign should be to bring other animals up to the quality of life sheep already have.

Originally posted by steerpike
[b]an eye witness said that from what he saw, the shearing shed was one of the worst place in the world- he is relating it to his own experience...

.

I only meant if your friends experience had him believe a shearing shed is on ...[text shortened]... bring other animals up to the quality of life sheep already have.[/b]

May i ask where you get this information? I'd like to know how sheep are the best treated farmed animal?

Originally posted by Sangeeta
May i ask where you get this information? I'd like to know how sheep are the best treated farmed animal?

I would define good treatment for commercial farm animals as living close to what is a natural style of living, allowed a reasonable life span and treated humanely.

A process of elimination takes away almost all poulty and pigs and I am sure you can find evidence of the conditions they endure. Cattle can also be free range but many are confined to feed lots on concrete pads under overcrowded conditions. You may be able to think of better treated animals but there are tens of millions of animals treated worse.