Originally posted by wedgehead2Freedom that comes by enslaving your fellow man?
Free will to oppress other humans? What benevlent God would do that? Socialism/ communism is about liberty through equality, which is a different type of freedom/ free will to that which you write about.
If Chavez, as a christian, is endevouring to follow Jesus' example by giving people equal opportunity in life, through christian socialism, is that a corruption of the intial message?
This is what I mentioned previously about the importance of defending the meanings of words. Any 'right' that comes at the expense of anothers rights is no 'right' at all. To live free is to live free from force and threats of force. Socialism/communism (Only 100 000 000 dead, let's give it another chance) relies on force for it's implementation.
Freedom is freedom, there isn't a "different type"
Do not use the word 'freedom', you are unqualified.
Originally posted by WajomaAll rights must come not at the expese of others- therefore people don't have a right to exploit people through capitalism- socialism/ communis is about giving everyone equal rights and chances- something capitalism clearly fails to do- people don't start off equal in life, and people become rich at the expense of others. People should be free nt just from physical force, but from economic forces- whic can force people to work a 40+ hour week, just to pay their bills. That's wage slavery.
Freedom that comes by enslaving your fellow man?
This is what I mentioned previously about the importance of defending the meanings of words. Any 'right' that comes at the expense of anothers rights is no 'right' at all. To live free is to live free from force and threats of force. Socialism/communism (Only 100 000 000 dead, let's give it another chance ...[text shortened]... re isn't a "different type"
Do not use the word 'freedom', you are unqualified.
Exactly how do you think capitalism was implemented- through the slave trade, through the brutal repression of trade unions, and the creation of slums. As capitalism has covered the world- the poor now live in certain areas of the Globe- such as Latin America and Africa. Politicans such as Chavez give people a chance to fight for their rights.
As to your 100m people dead from socialism/ communism, I have no idea where you are getting that number from- all I know is people are dying all the time from capitalism in poor areas of the wold- the people dying due to the lack of free healthcare and food, while grain is thrown away in rich countries, to keep prices up.
You are callling this freedom? It appears it is you who is using the meaning of freedom in the wrong way.
Originally posted by wedgehead2Words DO have meaning.
All rights must come not at the expese of others- therefore people don't have a right to exploit people through capitalism- socialism/ communis is about giving everyone equal rights and chances- something capitalism clearly fails to do- people don't start off equal in life, and people become rich at the expense of others. People should be free nt just fro ...[text shortened]... ling this freedom? It appears it is you who is using the meaning of freedom in the wrong way.
Words like "rights."
IMO the only rights anyone ever has are those he/she is willing and able to defend.
Words like "free" and "equal"
IMO we're all free .. but we're not all equal
Joe is born with a better brain than Sam .. Sam is born rich.
They are both free to choose a path in life .. it's their right.
They will both screw it up .. equally.
Originally posted by whodeyI suggest you actually read the pasage as your understanding of it is laughably incorrect.
So tell me, who would you feel compelled to give to. Someone who is perfectly able to work with plenty of oppurtunity to work, or someone who is unable to work due either to physical/mental abilities or lack of oppurtunity? Jesus once fed a multitude with a handful of fish and bread via miracle. He did so not only to feed them, but to gain their attention. ...[text shortened]... their stomachs. If his main goal was charity he would have fed them all till the day they died.
Originally posted by jammerNo, we are not all free BECAUSE of the inequality. Freedom comes through equality.
Words DO have meaning.
Words like "rights."
IMO the only rights anyone ever has are those he/she is willing and able to defend.
Words like "free" and "equal"
IMO we're all free .. but we're not all equal
Joe is born with a better brain than Sam .. Sam is born rich.
They are both free to choose a path in life .. it's their right.
They will both screw it up .. equally.
What use is freedom to someone who is homeless and starving? Of course they have the "freedom" to starve or steal- what freedom that is!
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Originally posted by wedgehead2Freedom gives you the right to be better than equal.
No, we are not all free BECAUSE of the inequality. Freedom comes through equality.
What use is freedom to someone who is homeless and starving? Of course they have the "freedom" to starve or steal- what freedom that is!
We're all different, with different abilities, intellect and drive .. we're nowhere near equal.
Freedom is your birthright as a human being. You can give it up at any time .. it's your right to do so; OR, you can fly your freak-flag and travel to the beat of your own drum .. your choice, your right.
Nobody is going to give you anything.
It may be hard to believe but the homeless person you speak of has more than the 2 choices you speak of .. starve .. or steal.
He can also cut my lawn and wash my car .. and maintain his dignity.
Originally posted by jammerFreedom gives you the right to at least start off equal, in terms of wealth and opportunity- which is something we don't have.
Freedom gives you the right to be better than equal.
We're all different, with different abilities, intellect and drive .. we're nowhere near equal.
Freedom is your birthright as a human being. You can give it up at any time .. it's your right to do so; OR, you can fly your freak-flag and travel to the beat of your own drum .. your choice, your right.
...[text shortened]... .. starve .. or steal.
He can also cut my lawn and wash my car .. and maintain his dignity.
Freedom isn't your birthright as a human- nothing is a right, besides that which society agrees to be a right.
I just don't understand why someone should have the choice and right to restrict other people's rights and choices.
"Nobody is going to give you anything"- don't you have any sense of community and societal responsibility, to help others when they need it?
What dignity is there in lowering yourself to the level of a virtual slave- working hard for you, for a not very generous wage.
Why should that person have to work for you- why shouldn't the state provide for them to help them get back on their feet?
Would you really give someone homeless a job?
Their choices" are far more limited then your ones- is that freedom?
Originally posted by wedgehead2Freedom is the abscence of force. Until you get that through your thick skull stop throwing the word around as if you have any idea what it means.
Freedom gives you the right to at least start off equal, in terms of wealth and opportunity- which is something we don't have.
Freedom isn't your birthright as a human- nothing is a right, besides that which society agrees to be a right.
I just don't understand why someone should have the choice and right to restrict other people's rights and choices. ...[text shortened]... homeless a job?
Their choices" are far more limited then your ones- is that freedom?
Originally posted by WajomaYou are the one who is supporting the right to use force, physical, economic, they are the same, to oppress other people, and is calling that freedom. I am supporting the taking away of force- of oppression.
Freedom is the abscence of force. Until you get that through your thick skull stop throwing the word around as if you have any idea what it means.
Originally posted by wedgehead2We may be coming at this from different angles. I believe you're seeing it as it "should be", while I speak of things as they are.
Freedom gives you the right to at least start off equal, in terms of wealth and opportunity- which is something we don't have.
Freedom isn't your birthright as a human- nothing is a right, besides that which society agrees to be a right.
I just don't understand why someone should have the choice and right to restrict other people's rights and choices. ...[text shortened]... homeless a job?
Their choices" are far more limited then your ones- is that freedom?
Let me know if i'm wrong on this.
We don't start off equal by any strech of the imagination. Different physical attributes, mental capacity, some with good parents some with trash, some with great wealth, some into poverty.
It's not so much the hand you're dealt .. it's how you play it that will make the big difference in your life.
You may feel that you only have the rights that society agrees to, but the fact remains that you have the free will to do anything you wish .. you simply ceded your "rights" to society by your own choice.
you say .. "I just don't understand why someone should have the choice and right to restrict other people's rights and choices."
They "shouldn't" .. but free will enables people to do anything, everything or nothing at all. It's simply the way it is .. you can deal with it, or whine that it "shouldn't" be thus.
But it is what it is.
I suppose I have about as much sense of community and societal responsibilty as the next guy.
I also have zero tolarance for slackers, posers, and pseudo-intellectuals.
you ask .. "What dignity is there in lowering yourself to the level of a virtual slave- working hard for you, for a not very generous wage.
Why should that person have to work for you- why shouldn't the state provide for them to help them get back on their feet?
Would you really give someone homeless a job?
Their choices" are far more limited then your ones- is that freedom?
The dignity would be in earning your own keep rather than being dependant on others.
That person doen't "have to work for me" .. it's his/her choice.
Yes, I give down-and-outers the chance to earn a buck once in awhile .. do I have to give up my Conservative card?
Although their choices are more limited than mine are, they are still "free" to make the choices that will make a difference in their lives.
It's hard .. and not necessarily fair, but still, it is what it is and we still have to deal with it .. or play the victim our entire lives.
Originally posted by jammerI doesn't have to be unfair though. Why do you have to accept the way it is? This kind of view would have stopped humans moving out of the Stone Age.
We may be coming at this from different angles. I believe you're seeing it as it "should be", while I speak of things as they are.
Let me know if i'm wrong on this.
We don't start off equal by any strech of the imagination. Different physical attributes, mental capacity, some with good parents some with trash, some with great wealth, some into poverty.
...[text shortened]... till have to deal with it .. or play the victim our entire lives.
Humans endeveour to find some sense of progress in their lives- that is why we now have all the things we do.
Sitting back and saying, "this is the way it is, and always will be" is patently absurd.