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@kevcvs57 saidBy marauder's argument, every single citizen of the USA should be in jail right now, for violently overthrowing His Majesty's legal government.
A technically illegal but totally moral move by the Ukrainian parliament
@shallow-blue saidMmm that’s actually true, and I’ve always fancied a Manhattan town house, Damn them colonials 🤔
By marauder's argument, every single citizen of the USA should be in jail right now, for violently overthrowing His Majesty's legal government.
@kevcvs57 saidYou don't like the truth much, do you?
A technically illegal but totally moral move by the Ukrainian parliament and you contend that this somehow mitigates or even justifies the invasion of Ukraine by a regime that bans unfriendly media outlets, jails and executes dissenters, and is know to stuff ballot boxes and ban political parties.
You know your not making any actual sense so why do you bother.
The Ukraine has been stumbling down the same path passing laws which discriminate against Russian speakers, that expand the power of a central police agency to spy on their own People, by arresting the leader of the largest opposition party, etc. etc. etc. It's hardly the model democracy that you pretend it to be.
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@shallow-blue saidNo, the American Revolution was a just struggle against a tyranny one that denied the colonials any chance to alter the cause of their grievances. They didn't elect a King or any members of the British Parliament.
By marauder's argument, every single citizen of the USA should be in jail right now, for violently overthrowing His Majesty's legal government.
By contrast, the Ukranian mob, upset by the freely elected President's refusal to OK a trade agreement, could have simply voted him out in the next election. Those elections were actually moved up in the EU brokered agreement between the Ukranian President and the leaders of the three largest opposition parties. Instead the most radical elements took over government buildings by force and toppled the lawful government.
Resort to force is justified against a tyranny when no other means is available; it is not justified when you have electoral means to make the government more amenable to your political beliefs. Thus, the American Revolution in 1787 was morally justified; the coup in the Ukraine 2014 was not.
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@no1marauder saidThis coming from someone who prefers book-legalistic arguments over saving a people from a massacre.
You don't like the truth much, do you?
It would be good if you got out of your Harvard ivory tower and looked at Ukraine's cold, hard reality for a change. Truth is found in blood and murdered family members, not in ledgers and law books.
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@no1marauder said*Snort* Sure, that explains the results...
No, the American Revolution was a just struggle against a tyranny one that denied the colonials any chance to alter the cause of their grievances. They didn't elect a King or any members of the British Parliament.
By contrast, the Ukranian mob, upset by the freely elected President's refusal to OK a trade agreement, could have simply voted him out in the next election. ...[text shortened]... . Thus, the American Revolution in 1787 was morally justified; the coup in the Ukraine 2014 was not.
No, it was a plain power grab by the local plutocrats, and the country has born its imprint ever since.
As for the rest of your Putinist apologeia, it is not worth adressing any more than this.
@shallow-blue saidI have this thing called a "philosophy" and apply it even handedly.
*Snort* Sure, that explains the results...
No, it was a plain power grab by the local plutocrats, and the country has born its imprint ever since.
As for the rest of your Putinist apologeia, it is not worth adressing any more than this.
Complaints about "plutocrats" from Euros is rather laughable in the context of conditions in the 18th Century. France devised an adequate system for dealing with your plutocrats in the 1790s (called the guillotine) but that was a short-lived aberration and they soon resumed their iron fisted rule over Europeans and any other People they could militarily control. Hundreds of millions of dead was the result.
So any such lecture to an American is likely to be met with derision, at best.
@shallow-blue saidYou and kev are busy denying the "cold hard reality" and pushing policies that will needlessly lengthen the war and vastly increase the death and suffering of Ukrainians.
This coming from someone who prefers book-legalistic arguments over saving a people from a massacre.
It would be good if you got out of your Harvard ivory tower and looked at Ukraine's cold, hard reality for a change. Truth is found in blood and murdered family members, not in ledgers and law books.
A peace treaty is what is needed but the paranoid belief that Putin is bent on conquest of all of Europe and cannot be bargained with is hardly the basis of how one will be achieved.
@no1marauder saidStop lying and stop being stupid
You don't like the truth much, do you?
The Ukraine has been stumbling down the same path passing laws which discriminate against Russian speakers, that expand the power of a central police agency to spy on their own People, by arresting the leader of the largest opposition party, etc. etc. etc. It's hardly the model democracy that you pretend it to be.
Perhaps you could google these anti Russian laws and did you miss the point that the opposition parties that have been temporarily barred are PRO RUSSIAN parties, Ukraine is at war with the invading murdering, rapist Russian army.
Still making excuses for invasion and mass murder then. You have strayed so far from the truth you will struggle to find your way back.
I’ve already asked your comrade MB to try starting a pro Ukrainian anti war party in your beloved Russia perhaps you could give him a hand with the fliers.
@no1marauder saidStop lying and stop being a stupid hypocrite
No, the American Revolution was a just struggle against a tyranny one that denied the colonials any chance to alter the cause of their grievances. They didn't elect a King or any members of the British Parliament.
By contrast, the Ukranian mob, upset by the freely elected President's refusal to OK a trade agreement, could have simply voted him out in the next election. ...[text shortened]... . Thus, the American Revolution in 1787 was morally justified; the coup in the Ukraine 2014 was not.
Most of that mob were students and the Russian backed scumbags murdered 108 of them while they demonstrated for freedom from rule by the Kremlin and now the Kremlin is murdering and raping a lot more Ukrainians with your support
Their struggle was so much more moral than one set of slave owning merchants wresting control from another set of slave owning merchants.
Your stance is literally puke inducing.
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@kevcvs57 saidYour irrational stupidity continues to be on full display; you seem incapable of actually responding to points raised in a reasonable way.
Stop lying and stop being stupid
Perhaps you could google these anti Russian laws and did you miss the point that the opposition parties that have been temporarily barred are PRO RUSSIAN parties, Ukraine is at war with the invading murdering, rapist Russian army.
Still making excuses for invasion and mass murder then. You have strayed so far from the truth you will strugg ...[text shortened]... o Ukrainian anti war party in your beloved Russia perhaps you could give him a hand with the fliers.
I don't have to google the "anti-Russian" laws; I've already presented them here on this Forum along with criticism of them from Human Rights Watch (which must be "pro-Russian" puppets of Putin according to your way of "thinking" ). The arrest of the opposition party's leader took place in February 2021, long before the invasion, and that "pro-Russian" party got the 2nd most votes in the last parliamentary election.
The Ukraine was sliding into a repressive system in violation of basic human rights well before the invasion gave Zelensky an excuse to ban political parties, all of which expressed opposition to the attack.
Of course, NATO membership hardly requires a functioning democracy; ask Orban or Erdogan.
@kevcvs57 saidWere those 18 police suicides?
Stop lying and stop being a stupid hypocrite
Most of that mob were students and the Russian backed scumbags murdered 108 of them while they demonstrated for freedom from rule by the Kremlin and now the Kremlin is murdering and raping a lot more Ukrainians with your support
Their struggle was so much more moral than one set of slave owning merchants wresting control from another set of slave owning merchants.
Your stance is literally puke inducing.
I realize that you have swallowed hook, line and sinker a propaganda line but even reading something as inadequate as wiki's description of the events in 2014 reveals that the mob which wound up seizing government buildings and overthrowing the elected government were heavily armed men, mostly from far-right nationalist parties. A peaceful settlement which met all the demands of the main opposition had been negotiated and signed (brokered by EU foreign ministers, no less) but these radical elements refused to accept it.
IF the mob that entered the Capitol on January 6th, 2021 had been armed with automatic rifles and they had "convinced" the members of Congress to rescind the results of the 2020 election in an illegal manner, no serious person would suggest that decision should stand. Why the West immediately blessed such an event in a so-called democracy would be hard to fathom except that it served the political goals of neocons i.e. the aggressive expansion of Western dominance in service to the international elite.
@no1marauder said“Of course, NATO membership hardly requires a functioning democracy; ask Orban or Erdogan.”
Your irrational stupidity continues to be on full display; you seem incapable of actually responding to points raised in a reasonable way.
I don't have to google the "anti-Russian" laws; I've already presented them here on this Forum along with criticism of them from Human Rights Watch (which must be "pro-Russian" puppets of Putin according to your way of "thinking" ). ...[text shortened]... attack.
Of course, NATO membership hardly requires a functioning democracy; ask Orban or Erdogan.
They are functional democracies with populist movements winning the debate for now.
Democracy in most countries actually means the party that garners the most votes gains power but I can see why you are confused about that.