Originally posted by kevcvs57His sentence will depend on one thing:
Well surely His sentence and the legitimacy of it pivot to some extent on whether He is simply a traitor to His country, or a more nuanced blend of betrayer of His govt but defender of the U.S citizens right to know what their govt is doing in their name.
Did he publish over the internet 750,000 classified documents?
If he had some overpowering reason to do so because they ALL were evidence of some sort of war crime/Geneva Convention violation, he might have a slight amount of public sympathy and a slender leg to stand on. (Even so it would be infinitesimal, going up the chain of command would have been the appropriate thing to do).
The fact is he dumped EVERY SECRET he could get his hands on and for that he should go to prison for a looooooong time.
Originally posted by KilgoreTrout15"Publish and be damned" everyone has the right to try and keep a secret but there should no legal recourse if your to stupid to be successful at it.
His sentence will depend on one thing:
Did he publish over the internet 750,000 classified documents?
If he had some overpowering reason to do so because they ALL were evidence of some sort of war crime/Geneva Convention violation, he might have a slight amount of public sympathy and a slender leg to stand on. (Even so it would be infinitesimal, goi ...[text shortened]... VERY SECRET he could get his hands on and for that he should go to prison for a looooooong time.
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Originally posted by kevcvs57So if a Soldier go out and tells the enemy, "Tomorrow we're going to SP out of the south gate of FOB Snuffleupagus in a seven vehicle convoy at 0900. We are to rondevu with a community leader named Muhammed Smith at 1030 near the hospital at grid coordinates 17S PV 45978385. Here is the rout we will be taking. The Platoon Leader and RTO will be in the #3 vehicle"
"Publish and be damned" everyone has the right to try and keep a secret but there should no legal recourse if your to stupid to be successful at it.
It is your contention that Soldier should not be punished?
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Originally posted by USArmyParatrooperits not the same, Manning made available material that had already happened and that was a damning indictment against some of the US atrocities and use of gratuitous violence in Iraq.
So if a Soldier go out and tells the enemy, "Tomorrow we're going to SP out of the south gate of FOB Snuffleupagus in a seven vehicle convoy at 0900. We are to rondevu with a community leader named Muhammed Smith at 1030 near the hospital at grid coordinates 17S PV 45978385. Here is the rout we will be taking. The Platoon Leader and RTO will be in the #3 vehicle"
It is your contention that Soldier should not be punished?
Originally posted by KilgoreTrout15he has plenty of public sympathy outside the United States.
His sentence will depend on one thing:
Did he publish over the internet 750,000 classified documents?
If he had some overpowering reason to do so because they ALL were evidence of some sort of war crime/Geneva Convention violation, he might have a slight amount of public sympathy and a slender leg to stand on. (Even so it would be infinitesimal, goi ...[text shortened]... VERY SECRET he could get his hands on and for that he should go to prison for a looooooong time.
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Originally posted by robbie carrobieWe've already established the information he gave out got people killed.
its not the same, Manning made available material that had already happened and that was a damning indictment against some of the US atrocities and use of gratuitous violence in Iraq.
There are only two documents that I've seen that were even controversial. And while I can certainly debate with you about those, let's just keep it simple and punish him for the remaining 749,998 documents he illegally leaked.
Originally posted by USArmyParatrooperit was not only documents but video, for example a video showing a man walking past a building that was under surveillance and which the US blew up while the man was simply walking past, killing him as well as those inside, inexplicable was why they could not have waited for the man to pass the building, hard to respect and indefensible. are you saying that it is not in the public interest that these atrocities be known?
We've already established the information he gave out got people killed.
There are only two documents that I've seen that were even controversial. And while I can certainly debate with you about those, let's just keep it simple and punish him for the remaining 749,998 documents he illegally leaked.
Originally posted by USArmyParatrooperI have as much sympathy for the scores of innocent victims killed by the inhumane use of US drone strikes, not to mention the hundreds of thousands of Iraqi widows and orphans as well as the thousands of wives and mothers of US soldiers who have lost husbands, sons and daughters. Its rather disingenuous of you to point to a single reference as some kind of justification.
How about the family of the Afghan national the Taliban killed as a result of the leak. Do they have sympathy for him?
Originally posted by USArmyParatrooperit got one person killed. considering the officers that killed those reporters, children, and civilians, it shouldn't give manning any additional time towards his sentence. all he is getting time for is releasing those documents. the espionage charges are ludicrous as it is setting a new precedent on investigative journalism, and that is the reason i'm not taking this military tribunal serious. how could you?
We've already established the information he gave out got people killed.
There are only two documents that I've seen that were even controversial. And while I can certainly debate with you about those, let's just keep it simple and punish him for the remaining 749,998 documents he illegally leaked.
compare this leak to the pentagon papers, and you'll see what daniel ellsberg did was worse than what manning did! during Nixon's years, he was let go free - time served. what has changed from that period of our nations time to now?
Originally posted by robbie carrobieThat video was one of 750,000 classified documents he leaked. For simplicity I already leads lets only punish him for the other 749,999.
it was not only documents but video, for example a video showing a man walking past a building that was under surveillance and which the US blew up while the man was simply walking past, killing him as well as those inside, inexplicable was why they could not have waited for the man to pass the building, hard to respect and indefensible. are you saying that it is not in the public interest that these atrocities be known?
Originally posted by empovsunIt directly got one person killed that we know of. How many don't we know of and how many did it indirectly get killed?
it got one person killed. considering the officers that killed those reporters, children, and civilians, it shouldn't give manning any additional time towards his sentence. all he is getting time for is releasing those documents. the espionage charges are ludicrous as it is setting a new precedent on investigative journalism, and that is the reason i'm not ...[text shortened]... was let go free - time served. what has changed from that period of our nations time to now?
I already said for simplicity we won't punish him for releasing that video. Only for the other 749,999 documents he illegally released.
Originally posted by robbie carrobieWhich, apparently is zero sympathy considering you want to let Manning go even after his illegal actions got people killed.
I have as much sympathy for the scores of innocent victims killed by the inhumane use of US drone strikes, not to mention the hundreds of thousands of Iraqi widows and orphans as well as the thousands of wives and mothers of US soldiers who have lost husbands, sons and daughters. Its rather disingenuous of you to point to a single reference as some kind of justification.
Originally posted by USArmyParatrooperi get that, but if we have pardoned people in the past for these kinds of whistle blowing actions, then what is different now? why can't we let this one go? for the size of the leak? if you are arguing about the size of the leak, then shouldn't we state that those files were not that secret? they were low level documents. as you or kilgore said: they were about typical everyday operations.
It directly got one person killed that we know of. How many don't we know of and how many did it indirectly get killed?
I already said for simplicity we won't punish him for releasing that video. Only for the other 749,999 documents he illegally released.
and what about investigative journalism? are we just going to turn a blind eye to that? reporters essentially cannot report on matters that harm or embarrass the state without being prosecuted thereafter. look at snowden, julian assange, and this young soldier here. sure, they are idealists, but their actions compared to the governments actions paint a scary picture for our future...