Originally posted by xs"What inducement has the farmer, while following the plough, to lay aside his peaceful pursuit, and go to war with the farmer of another country? or what inducement has the manufacturer? What is dominion to them, or to any class of men in a nation? Does it add an acre to any man's estate, or raise its value? Are not conquest and defeat each of the same price, and taxes the never-failing consequence?- Though this reasoning may be good to a nation, it is not so to a government. War is the Pharo-table of governments, and nations the dupes of the game."
Me, a plutocrat? I believe that requires wealth.
One could say the founding Fathers were themselves plutocrats of the day. Their documents and writings merely the easy part.
The country itself was created by groups like Sons of Liberty and like-minded colonists willing to fight for ideals long before the Lee Resolution, the Declaration of Independence, or the ...[text shortened]... ld have been impressed, anymore than I.
"These are the times that try men's souls"
Tom Paine
Rights of Man
Part II, Chapter 2
What do you think he would have thought of your "world's only superpower" rationale?
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Originally posted by no1marauderWhat Archimedes said of the mechanical powers, may be applied to Reason and Liberty. "Had we," said he, "a place to stand upon, we might raise the world."
"What inducement has the farmer, while following the plough, to lay aside his peaceful pursuit, and go to war with the farmer of another country? or what inducement has the manufacturer? What is dominion to them, or to any class of men ...[text shortened]... uld have thought of your "world's only superpower" rationale?
Tomas Paine
Rights of Man
Introduction
I believe he would say "raise the world".
Incidentally "world's only superpower" is not my rationale, Is it not generally accepted world wide that America is such?
Originally posted by xsUMM. could you please find a place in any of his writings where he says "raise the world" by invading other countries? He believed, like most of the Framers, that the US should be a "shining beacon" but that is a far different thing then attacking other countries and compelling them by force to adopt a certain economic and political system. You are grossly misreading Paine's message, particulary considering the quote I gave above.
What Archimedes said of the mechanical powers, may be applied to Reason and Liberty. "Had we," said he, "a place to stand upon, we might raise the world."
Tomas Paine
Rights of Man
Introduction
I believe he would say "raise the world".
Incidentally "world's only superpower" is not my rationale, Is it not generally accepted world wide that America is such?
Originally posted by no1marauderGrossly misreading Paine's message! I think not.
UMM. could you please find a place in any of his writings where he says "raise the world" by invading other countries? He believed, like most of the Framers, that the US should be a "shining beacon" but that is a far different thing then attacking other countries and compelling them by force to adopt a certain economic and political system. You are grossly misreading Paine's message, particulary considering the quote I gave above.
His Rights of Man, which we have been quoting, was written in defense of the French Revolution (he also wrote the French Declaration of Rights.) I've no doubt his was a world view, concerning the struggles of mankind for emancipation from tyranny and religious superstition.
It is said that Ben Franklin remarked to Paine after the American Revolution, "Where liberty is, that is my country," Paine replied , "Where liberty is not, that is mine."
I believe your use of his writings to be out of context, as Paine also said:
"Independence is my happiness, and I view things as they are without regard to place or person. My country is the world; and my religion is to do good."
You say we invaded another country, I say we toppled a Tyrant.
You say we're compelling them by force to adopt a certain economic and political system, I say we are giving them the freedom to self-govern.
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Originally posted by xsThe US is militarily occupying another country after invading it. Only someone of your supreme arrogance would equate that with an indigenous toppling of a tyrant such as Paine defended. Again, you can not find anywhere in Paine's writing a defense of war against another country to impose a governmental system. And you know that as well as I do.
Grossly misreading Paine's message! I think not.
His Rights of Man, which we have been quoting, was written in defense of the French Revolution (he also wrote the French Declaration of Rights.) I've no doubt his was a world view, concernin ...[text shortened]... tical system, I say we are giving them the freedom to self-govern.
Throughout history, countries have invaded others and used various excuses; this time is no different. Iraq is run by the US military, its people are being repressed and killed and this government shows no sign that it will ever leave. Believe your fairy tales about a plutocrat like Bush wanting to bring "freedom" to the Iraqis; the cold reality is that their country is occupied by a foreign military force and they ruled by a foreign country. "Freedom to self-govern"??????? Absurd. And please stop confusing Tom Paine, someone who would have no problem in identifying this adventure as one started by aristocrats with the intention of padding their pockets and increasing their power, with a clown like GW; even someone as simple-minded as you must know how utterly ridiculous that is.
Originally posted by xsCouldn't we have done that another way? You say "we're giving them the freedom to self-govern", but did we need to declare war, invade them and then kill thousands? And all of that at the expense of the U.S. taxpayer. And we're still paying...
You say we invaded another country, I say we toppled a Tyrant.
You say we're compelling them by force to adopt a certain economic and political system, I say we are giving them the freedom to self-govern.
Bush has started a war that our children and grandchildren will now have to fight. They'll spend their lives reading about and hearing about terrorist attacks all over the world, and God forbid another in the U.S. We've spent 200 Billion dollars to create a terrorist breeding ground for the next... how many years?
Originally posted by no1marauderIt's impossible to point out the forest to one who continually beats his head on the same tree.
The US is militarily occupying another country after invading it. Only someone of your supreme arrogance would equate that with an indigenous toppling of a tyrant such as Paine defended. Again, you can not find anywhere in Paine's writing a defense of war against another country to impose a governmental system. And you know that as well as I do. ...[text shortened]... a clown like GW; even someone as simple-minded as you must know how utterly ridiculous that is.
As once again you have resorted to name calling, your above opinion is of little consequence to me.