@no1marauder saidpeople (and the world) change
This was the basis for Ukrainian independence i.e. "The Declaration is the basis for a new constitution and laws of Ukraine and determines the positions of the Republic for the purpose of international agreements."
It also contains this provision:
"[b]The Ukrainian SSR solemnly declares its intention of becoming a permanently neutral state that does not part ...[text shortened]... ada.gov.ua:7777/site/postanova_eng/Declaration_of_State_Sovereignty_of_Ukraine_rev1.htm
Thoughts?
On Wednesday, a spokeswoman for the Russian Foreign Ministry, Maria Zakharova, claimed that Moscow has uncovered evidence of a U.S.-backed bioweapons program in Ukraine that includes the development of plague and anthrax.
“Recently found documents show that components of biological weapons were made in Ukraine’s laboratories, with funding from [the U.S. Department of Defense], in direct proximity to Russia,” a tweet from the U.K.’s Russian Embassy stated.
https://www.westernjournal.com/russias-startling-allegation-yet-directly-implicates-usa/
Ukraine has no right to sovereignty because Russia alleged they have WMDs, even if they are not there. The USA set the standard.
Pointing out double standards is fun. The USA even had WMDs when invading Iraq, so Russia having them is irrelevant too.
😛
@metal-brain saidWhat, exactly, does this have to do with the subject?
On Wednesday, a spokeswoman for the Russian Foreign Ministry, Maria Zakharova, claimed that Moscow has uncovered evidence of a U.S.-backed bioweapons program in Ukraine that includes the development of plague and anthrax.
“Recently found documents show that components of biological weapons were made in Ukraine’s laboratories, with funding from [the U.S. Department of D ...[text shortened]... ards is fun. The USA even had WMDs when invading Iraq, so Russia having them is irrelevant too.
😛
@metal-brain saidYeah was that the same Russian that said we have no plan to invade Ukraine 🙄
On Wednesday, a spokeswoman for the Russian Foreign Ministry, Maria Zakharova, claimed that Moscow has uncovered evidence of a U.S.-backed bioweapons program in Ukraine that includes the development of plague and anthrax.
“Recently found documents show that components of biological weapons were made in Ukraine’s laboratories, with funding from [the U.S. Department of D ...[text shortened]... ards is fun. The USA even had WMDs when invading Iraq, so Russia having them is irrelevant too.
😛
Do you think anyone with half a brain believes a word that comes out of the Kremlin.
The claim you stated is a clear sign that Putin has decided to use biological weapons to do what his conventional forces cannot.
@no1marauder said1) Putin's stated reason for invading Crimea was allegedly to protect Ethnic Russians from “far-right extremists”. Russia invented its own reason for invading that had nothing to do with violating any "international agreements".
What "international agreement" was that? The one premised on the Ukraine becoming a neutral State and thus receiving security "assurances"? Or the one where Ukraine could violate its own Constitution and violently overthrow its elected President?
2) What "international agreement" was broken when their president was removed?
There was no "agreement" broken when Russia annexed Crimea.
@no1marauder saidYour OP makes a legalistic argument using Ukraine's Declaration of Sovereignty. How then do you complain about your OP being countered with another legalistic argument?
You're making legalistic arguments which I'm not interested in.
@no1marauder said"Was and is Russia unreasonable in expecting governments of the Ukraine to abide by such provisions?"
92.3% of the voters in the Ukraine supported a referendum which adopted the Act of Declaration of Independence of Ukraine. That Declaration stated that it was :
"Implementing the Declaration of State Sovereignty of Ukraine,"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_Independence_of_Ukraine
Which, as already pointed out, said Ukraine would be a "permanently neu ...[text shortened]...
Was and is Russia unreasonable in expecting governments of the Ukraine to abide by such provisions?
the russian supporter asks if russia is unreasonable while russia is bombing childrens hospitals...GTFOH
@no1marauder saidSo you were not making the argument that the Declaration was some kind of legally binding document?
No, it wasn't a "legalistic" argument.
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One of the false premises that keeps getting bandied about on these various threads by various people on both sides of the debate is that NATO has broken it's promise to Russia to not expand eastward. I see no evidence of this promise having ever been given and indeed is denied by NATO on it's own website on this page. From what I've been able to find, it's been clear all along that NATO would continue to allow expansion and new member states (even to the East) to join. I'd be interested to see strong evidence that NATO gave Russia an assurance, preferably in the form of a signed agreement, that they would not expand to the East.
On the below page pay attention to what Gorbachev said in 2014:
"The topic of 'NATO expansion' was not discussed at all, and it wasn't brought up in those years. I say this with full responsibility. Not a single Eastern European country raised the issue, not even after the Warsaw Pact ceased to exist in 1991. Western leaders didn't bring it up, either."
https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/115204.htm
@ullr saidTo be fair, NATO's website could be a bit biased here.
One of the false premises that keeps getting bandied about on these various threads by various people on both sides of the debate is that NATO has broken it's promise to Russia to not expand eastward. I see no evidence of this promise having ever been given and indeed is denied by NATO on it's own website on this page. From what I've been able to find, it's been clear all alon ...[text shortened]... 1991. Western leaders didn't bring it up, either."
https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/115204.htm
The LA times points out there were hundreds of memos and minutes taken during meetings indicating Putin was right, and the West did make that promise:
https://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-shifrinson-russia-us-nato-deal--20160530-snap-story.html
@ullr saidIt’s not, as far as I can tell, the breaking of an agreement that’s the issue, more the expansion Eastward at all.
One of the false premises that keeps getting bandied about on these various threads by various people on both sides of the debate is that NATO has broken it's promise to Russia to not expand eastward. I see no evidence of this promise having ever been given and indeed is denied by NATO on it's own website on this page. From what I've been able to find, it's been clear all alon ...[text shortened]... 1991. Western leaders didn't bring it up, either."
https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/115204.htm
As for breaking an agreement: that is false. There was no agreement. Assurances were given though (making it a quagmire of a topic).
https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2022/feb/28/candace-owens/fact-checking-claims-nato-us-broke-agreement-again/
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@vivify saidWell sure it will be biased and thanks for posting the link.
To be fair, NATO's website could be a bit biased here.
The LA times points out there were hundreds of memos and minutes taken during meetings indicating Putin was right, and the West did make that promise:
https://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-shifrinson-russia-us-nato-deal--20160530-snap-story.html
I've read it and perhaps I'll reread it but so far I see no hard evidence in that LA Times story that the NATO promised not to expand east. I'm sure there were many conversations about it and can agree that there may be some misunderstandings but so far I still see no real evidence of such an agreement and you would think that is something that would have been put in writing in the NATO-Russia agreement that was signed by Yeltsin.
So really what we have is just opinions that NATO broke it's promise and not hard facts that we all can agree on. Yet is has been stated on these threads as if it is irrefutable fact.
@ullr saidFrom the LA Times link:
so far I see no hard evidence in that LA Times story that the NATO promised not to expand east.
According to transcripts of meetings in Moscow on Feb. 9, then-Secretary of State James Baker suggested that in exchange for cooperation on Germany, U.S. could make “iron-clad guarantees” that NATO would not expand “one inch eastward.”