Defining "Defund the police"

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Americans are asking the police to do a lot of things. Traffic stops. Domestic disturbances. Cases of mental disorders. Disagreements between neighbours. Welness checks. A lot of things that have nothing to do with people carrying very lethal guns, trained to use them at the slightest provocation and convinced they are warriors, the last bastion.

It also deals with the fact that a very minor percentage of crime in the US that the police deal with is actual violent crime and the cops are bad at solving those violent crime anyway.

@Zahlanzi

The US could perhaps do with something analogous to the German Ordnungsamt, or "Order Enforcement Office." It's something like a 2nd tier of police officers who handle little things like parking enforcement, dogs barking after hours, minor disturbances and disputes, and such. They're more than US meter maids, but less than the police who handle violent crimes, murders, robberies, and the like.

Like the US, Germany has a federal system of government, so the country's various states largely manage their own affairs. This is why I often look to Germany for good ideas that might be able to be implemented in the US.

@Soothfast
Yeah, like THE GESTAPO

@jimm619 said
@Soothfast
Yeah, like THE GESTAPO

Your data is 75 years out of date, if I understand you correctly.

The US needs to invest in youth outreach programmes, mental health support, health services and community work.

This investment will, within a generation, reap huge benefits for society.

It’s madness funding the police to mop up systemic problems, instead of tackling the problems at their roots.

@shavixmir said
The US needs to invest in youth outreach programmes, mental health support, health services and community work.

This investment will, within a generation, reap huge benefits for society.

It’s madness funding the police to mop up systemic problems, instead of tackling the problems at their roots.

We have all those programs and services you mention, but they are woefully underfunded. Gazillionaires need their tax cuts, the US defense budget has to be bigger than the next ten military powers combined, and the cops of one-horse towns need their military arsenals and armored assault vehicles.

@soothfast said
@Zahlanzi

The US could perhaps do with something analogous to the German Ordnungsamt, or "Order Enforcement Office." It's something like a 2nd tier of police officers who handle little things like parking enforcement, dogs barking after hours, minor disturbances and disputes, and such. They're more than US meter maids, but less than the police who handle violent ...[text shortened]... This is why I often look to Germany for good ideas that might be able to be implemented in the US.

as long as they are sufficiently separated.

The point is to not train "second tier" like "first tier". Don't send a cop trained to deal with mobsters to address a parking violation. Don't send a cop armed with a gun to someone complaining their neighbour is listening to too loud music.

For that reason, why call them cops at all?

@jimm619 said
@Soothfast
Yeah, like THE GESTAPO

The GeStaPo (Geheime Staats Polizei) was of Course an Agnency of the Reich not of the Länder. But you are surely Aware of this., just hoist the irony flag next time 😉

@Zahlanzi

America has long list of outstanding issues to deal with. Policing is only one of them. Underfunding of youth and social programmes is another. Effective job training and integration of people with various disadvantages into the market are others. Persistent racial inequality. An effective social net for the chronically unemployed and an effective national health service. I could go on...

It will not be possible to redress any one of these issues without a coherent programme which at least acknowledges and addresses them all (and how to finance them). Piecemeal solutions will not work. These issues have grown up over a very long period and they will not go away by waiting. Neither political party in America has the vision or the will to propose a coherent solution to these problems; they mostly bicker over single stop-gap measures, creating a patchwork of lobby-interest-group-driven benefits.

Trump did not create these problems, but he sure isn't solving any of them either. His confrontational style of leadership is making them markedly worse and much less tractable to any sort of cooperative cross-party solution.

@moonbus said
@Zahlanzi

America has long list of outstanding issues to deal with. Policing is only one of them. Underfunding of youth and social programmes is another. Effective job training and integration of people with various disadvantages into the market are others. Persistent racial inequality. An effective social net for the chronically unemployed and an effective national health ...[text shortened]... making them markedly worse and much less tractable to any sort of cooperative cross-party solution.

What are you saying? That a system cannot be improved in minor aspects, that it is an all or nothing approach? That if your house has a bug infestation, a leaky faucet and bad electrical you must call the exterminator, plumber and electrician on the same day or not bother at all? I am having problem understanding your post.


We have a specific problem. The police have too many responsibilities for which they are woefully unprepared. The solution proposed to THAT particular problem is defund the police and shift those many responsibilities to other agencies along with the fund shift. That solution doesn't claim to solve the long list of America's outstanding issues, it doesn't claim it will eradicate crime and make every dog poop rainbows, it is a specific solution to a specific problem.

@zahlanzi said
What are you saying? That a system cannot be improved in minor aspects, that it is an all or nothing approach? That if your house has a bug infestation, a leaky faucet and bad electrical you must call the exterminator, plumber and electrician on the same day or not bother at all? I am having problem understanding your post.


We have a specific problem. The police have to ...[text shortened]... l eradicate crime and make every dog poop rainbows, it is a specific solution to a specific problem.

I will give you one example of what I mean. American police forces are very militarized, compared to the forces of many other similarly technologically advanced countries. In the UK, for example, the constable on the beat is still unarmed. There is a reason for this: the public in America is heavily armed. The public in the UK is not. Moreover, there is in America a massive black market drug-problem; America is awash in both arms and illegal drugs. Drug gangs are heavily armed thugs who think nothing of engaging in live firefights with other gangs and the police. In many cases, the general public and gangs in particular are more heavily armed than the police are allowed to be. Hence, the 'need' for SWAT teams in reserve. When the police in America arrive on the scene of a crime in progress, they must assume that everyone else there is armed. This contributes to a climate of mistrust where fatal mishaps are common. Police in America are trained to protect themselves by shooting if they feel threatened, and they obviously do feel threatened. This is not the case in, for example, the UK or Germany or Switzerland. In those places, when the police show up, they do not feel threatened, because they know that the likelihood is virtually zero that anyone already on the scene is armed. The general level of tension is lower in those countries, and the policing is not coincidentally less heavy-handed.

No change in police tactics, training, or funding would alter the larger level of tension in the USA and effectively reduce the number of fatal shootings by police. So long as the country remains awash in illegal drugs controlled by heavily-armed thugs, so long as every citizen must be presumed to carry weapons in public, -- with preparedness to use them at the slightest provocation - America's police will feel threatened and respond with deadly force. This is a Gordian knot with no one-sided solution. America lives with a level of daily gun-violence which would be called civil war in any other civilised country. De-escalating policing in America will happen only if the whole country de-escalates so the police themselves no longer feel threatened.

Only in America is it considered NOT INSANE to propose that school teachers carry weapons in the classroom, to deter mass shootings!

I agree that police power is wasted handing out parking tickets and dispersing loud-mouthed youths who make a nuisance of themselves in public transport. These are chores which could be delegated to other officials.

@jimm619 said
@Soothfast
Yeah, like THE GESTAPO

Trump is on to that.

@moonbus said
@Zahlanzi

America has long list of outstanding issues to deal with. Policing is only one of them.

When an officer loses his job for not firing on a man you know your system is in trouble.

The officer received $175,000 for wrongful dismissal.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/fired-police-officer-who-refused-shoot-suspect-gets-175-000-n847501

@moonbus said
I will give you one example of what I mean. American police forces are very militarized, compared to the forces of many other similarly technologically advanced countries. In the UK, for example, the constable on the beat is still unarmed. There is a reason for this: the public in America is heavily armed. The public in the UK is not. Moreover, there is in America a massive b ...[text shortened]... nce of themselves in public transport. These are chores which could be delegated to other officials.

the problem with what your saying is that the police don't go guns blazing in rich neighborhoods. They can deescalate situations there. They can in fact write parking tickets without killing people. A better police force is in fact possible.

The other thing i am predominantly hearing from your post is how threatened the cops feel. How about how threatened the civilians feel, the vast majority of which are not gangbangers.

Don't know how well you watched the video i linked. Give it a try. You will find out that violent crime can be as low as 4% of total events where cops are involved. What do you want? The police to be trained in a warrior, shoot first mentality in case they happen to come across those 4 in 100 cases of violent crime? of which how many are there that it is known beforehand that there will be violence?

You are seriously underestimating just how reasonable humans are when you treat them woth respect.

@soothfast said
@Zahlanzi

The US could perhaps do with something analogous to the German Ordnungsamt, or "Order Enforcement Office." It's something like a 2nd tier of police officers who handle little things like parking enforcement, dogs barking after hours, minor disturbances and disputes, and such. They're more than US meter maids, but less than the police who handle violent crimes, murders, robberies, and the like.

Lots of fatalities for police actually occur when responding to relatively minor disturbances.

This is because we own guns, and nearly every situation could be potentially fatal, and thus the Police are always on guard.