@no1marauder saidLet the hotels and cruise ships raise their wages a bit and they'll draw plenty of people who won't quit as fast. Difficulty retaining workers is something the free market can fix.
Except those type of jobs are the ones most impacted by the US labor shortage:
"Jobs that are fully in-person and traditionally have lower wages have had a more difficult time retaining workers, even prior to the pandemic. For example, the leisure and hospitality industry has experienced the highest quit rates of all industries, with the accommodation and food services ...[text shortened]... tps://www.uschamber.com/workforce/understanding-americas-labor-shortage-the-most-impacted-industries
More money won't train someone to write software or run phase 3 tests of pharmaceuticals.
@sh76 saidThe "free market" has been shown to be unable to fix very much. As shown by the Chamber of Commerce article, these problems are long lasting and probably structural.
Let the hotels and cruise ships raise their wages a bit and they'll draw plenty of people who won't quit as fast. Difficulty retaining workers is something the free market can fix.
More money won't train someone to write software or run phase 3 tests of pharmaceuticals.
In any event, increased immigration is in line with "free market" principles (ask the right wing Libertarians) not in conflict with them.
Here's some background information you might or might not find illuminating: https://chicagopolicyreview.org/2023/04/06/america-needs-more-immigrants/
@sh76 said"WHEREAS, the Libertarian Party acknowledges that economic freedom demands the unrestricted movement of human as well as financial capital across national borders:"
Let the hotels and cruise ships raise their wages a bit and they'll draw plenty of people who won't quit as fast. Difficulty retaining workers is something the free market can fix.
More money won't train someone to write software or run phase 3 tests of pharmaceuticals.
https://lp.org/lnc-resolution-supports-immigration-opposes-border-wall/
"Most Americans are immigrants or descended from immigrants who sought opportunity and freedom on our shores. They and their children worked hard, assimilated, and added to our nation’s prosperity. Immigrants today continue to become Americans and, in the process, make the United States a wealthier, freer, and safer country. However, our current immigration system excludes most peaceful and healthy immigrants. Congress should look to America’s past for inspiration to expand and deregulate legal immigration."
https://www.cato.org/immigration
@sh76 saidThis is fair. It's refreshing that not all Republicans are the ones with Trump's one-liners memorized.
To start with, I don't buy any of Trump's anything. I don't think he's evil per se like you do, and I think he's a talented politician, but I put almost no stock in his opinions or thoughts. Sure I agree with him sometimes. And I'm not going to back off a position just because Trump adopts it. But hey, even a stopped clock is right twice a day.
But to answer your first questi ...[text shortened]... terrible for our society.
This is all basically obvious, even if a little politically incorrect.
To this, in particular:
"The thing with any immigration policy is that the masses of immigrants, in general, have to be willing to assimilate to your culture. You can possibly make exceptions for highly talented people, I suppose. But not for everyone.
"Let's say we're talking about people from Syria, for example. I'm sure many or most would-be immigrants would love to come and work hard and all that, but if you allow tens or hundreds of thousands who want to turn the non-Muslim world into a series of Caliphates, that's terrible for our society."
I see many immigrants adapting to the US culture easily. Not only do I see them at work, working hard, by the way, but I see them at leisure as well. I've seen Muslims in parks on the weekend with their kids and their little hibachis cooking their traditional foods (no pork, btw) alongside Americans and their hotdogs. Playing pickup ball. Interacting with whomever has the guts to come interact with them. I usually take several Frisbees to introduce them to tossing these around and it's a good time. They just want a good life for their children, like we all do. No one shouting ISIS themes or wanting us all dead.
Sure, there's a lot of fear about them in America. Americans, especially, love to scare themselves about Muslims all day long, but they're just humans. Most Americans just do not know them. And we always fear what we do not know.
@sh76 saidClearly, we need more good people too. People more concerned with others, not just themselves.
Talented meaning that their skills are useful and difficult to find. I don't give a damn if they're really good at walking on their hands.
People could be very talented baristas or janitors, but nobody cares because these are trivial skills that many people can do. We don't need to import baristas. But engineers, mathematicians, scientists, data analysts, etc. We need more of them, not less.
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@sh76 saidSure it will. That's exactly why so few Americans are "talented" - because we have to pay to develop our own "talents" and now we're in debt.
Let the hotels and cruise ships raise their wages a bit and they'll draw plenty of people who won't quit as fast. Difficulty retaining workers is something the free market can fix.
More money won't train someone to write software or run phase 3 tests of pharmaceuticals.
https://www.coursereport.com/blog/coding-bootcamp-cost-comparison-full-stack-immersives
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@AThousandYoung saidthe ROI on a $10,000 or $20,000 investment in training in a STEM field is enormous, and government funding (at the very least in the form of loans) is generally available. A 10 or 20 k loan on a credential that qualifies you for a 6 figure salary isn't going to cripple anyone with debt.
Sure it will. That's exactly why so few Americans are "talented" - because we have to pay to develop our own "talents" and now we're in debt.
https://www.coursereport.com/blog/coding-bootcamp-cost-comparison-full-stack-immersives
Georgia Tech offers a Master of Science in Analytics for a bit more than $10k.
https://info.pe.gatech.edu/oms-analytics
Any industrious, motivated and talented (in that subject ,matter) person can take it. Data analysis earn about $100k on average.
The problem isn't the system. In fact, it's not even really a problem. There just aren't enough talented and industrious people in many STEM to fill the ideal number of such jobs.
The market is doing a great job in making affordable training available (coding bootcamps for under $10k that you cited is a classic example); it's just that the number of people motivated and skilled enough to get there isn't as high as the number of ideal workers in the space. So you allow some foreigners in to fill these positions. Common sense, really.
Making those bootcamps even cheaper or even free are not going to suddenly skyrocket the number of skilled engineers and computer programmers in the country. The barrier to entering these fields is not training - it's work ethic and talent.
@no1marauder saidI'm not a libertarian, but I am in favor of more legal immigration, especially for those who are skilled and can demonstrate that they will contribute to the economy.
The "free market" has been shown to be unable to fix very much. As shown by the Chamber of Commerce article, these problems are long lasting and probably structural.
In any event, increased immigration is in line with "free market" principles (ask the right wing Libertarians) not in conflict with them.
Here's some background information you might or might not find illuminating: https://chicagopolicyreview.org/2023/04/06/america-needs-more-immigrants/
My original point on this thread is that we SHOULD allow more people in who have skills in STEM fields. Now we're getting sidetracked on why I'm not as gung ho on letting in people without such skills.
So, let me clarify. I'm not against allowing in industrious people without STEM skills, though I don't think it's the same priority as the former, and it has to be done with more deliberation and analysis.
@sh76 saidYou mean educated. Admit it.
Talented meaning that their skills are useful and difficult to find. I don't give a damn if they're really good at walking on their hands.
People could be very talented baristas or janitors, but nobody cares because these are trivial skills that many people can do. We don't need to import baristas. But engineers, mathematicians, scientists, data analysts, etc. We need more of them, not less.
You want to avoid the debate of why the USA does not have enough educated people for certain jobs. It is no secret that educated foreigners are coveted by almost all countries.
Educated people are more valuable and get a fast track to immigrate.
@sh76 saidI’m 50k in debt in a STEM field and I don’t make six figures. You’re starting to sound like Average Joe.
the ROI on a $10,000 or $20,000 investment in training in a STEM field is enormous, and government funding (at the very least in the form of loans) is generally available. A 10 or 20 k loan on a credential that qualifies you for a 6 figure salary isn't going to cripple anyone with debt.
Georgia Tech offers a Master of Science in Analytics for a bit more than $10k.
https:/ ...[text shortened]... s in the country. The barrier to entering these fields is not training - it's work ethic and talent.
@AThousandYoung saidIf I weren't such a nice guy, I'd retaliate for the AJ barb by commenting that anecdotes based on one individual's incompetence are not hard evidence.
I’m 50k in debt in a STEM field and I don’t make six figures. You’re starting to sound like Average Joe.
But I'm too nice a guy to do that. 😉
@Metal-Brain saidWhatever, dude.
You mean educated. Admit it.
You want to avoid the debate of why the USA does not have enough educated people for certain jobs. It is no secret that educated foreigners are coveted by almost all countries.
Educated people are more valuable and get a fast track to immigrate.
You say tomato, I say tomah-to
Same diff
@sh76 said
If I weren't such a nice guy, I'd retaliate for the AJ barb by commenting that anecdotes based on one individual's incompetence are not hard evidence.
But I'm too nice a guy to do that. 😉
https://ncses.nsf.gov/pubs/nsf23315/report/stem-median-wage-and-salary-earnings
STEM workers had median wage and salary earnings of about $64,000