Originally posted by whodeyIsn't that a bit like observing that most of the Royal Houses of Europe were adepts of Freemasonry and yet they still shrived for dominance over one another. Go figure!
So if the battle is over religion, why is it that Fatah and Hamas battle each other? Are they not of the same religion?
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Originally posted by spruce112358So basically they want to remove one theocracy and replace it with another. And that bit about wanting regime change in Palestine is false. 3/4's of Palestine is now Jordan. They don't want regime change there, they only want regime change in the part of Palestine where Israel is.
One would think from various posts that the Hamas charter called for killing Jews. It does not.
According to their charter, Hamas opposes Zionism, not Judaism. Hamas is against the existence of the Israeli Zionist government. In other words, they are for regime change in Palestine -- not for Jewish deaths per se.
At several points, the Hamas c that if your religion tells you to wear a funny hat -- who am I to comment on how it looks?
And do you exvcept the Israels to say, "Oh, they don't want us dead, they just want to overthrow our government? Now that's a partner for peace that we can work with!"
Originally posted by Merkagreed.
So basically they want to remove one theocracy and replace it with another. And that bit about wanting regime change in Palestine is false. 3/4's of Palestine is now Jordan. They don't want regime change there, they only want regime change in the part of Palestine where Israel is.
And do you exvcept the Israels to say, "Oh, they don't want us dead, they just want to overthrow our government? Now that's a partner for peace that we can work with!"
Originally posted by MerkIt's just interesting how Hamas writes 'We want regime change in Palestine such that Muslims, Christians, and Jews can live in peace,' became 'Hamas vows to kill all the Jews!' in some people's minds.
So basically they want to remove one theocracy and replace it with another. And that bit about wanting regime change in Palestine is false. 3/4's of Palestine is now Jordan. They don't want regime change there, they only want regime change in the part of Palestine where Israel is.
And do you exvcept the Israels to say, "Oh, they don't want us dead, they just want to overthrow our government? Now that's a partner for peace that we can work with!"
Is Islamic rule the only way to achieve peace? No. Maybe one way, but not the only way.
However, as Hamas points out, the current Israeli regime has mostly shown how it acts aggressively and unilaterally. It has NOT shown yet that it is willing to make sacrifices for peace -- even when the rest of the world (exception: US) is telling them the solution is just. So the assertion that a Muslim government would behave better is made more plausible thereby.
Originally posted by spruce112358No it's not. That one a Muslim theocracy is more just than a Jewish one can no way be supported with facts. The Muslim theocracies in the region certainly aren't more accepting of other religions.
It's just interesting how Hamas writes 'We want regime change in Palestine such that Muslims, Christians, and Jews can live in peace,' became 'Hamas vows to kill all the Jews!' in some people's minds.
Is Islamic rule the only way to achieve peace? No. Maybe one way, but not the only way.
However, as Hamas points out, the current Israeli regime has ...[text shortened]... the assertion that a Muslim government would behave better is made more plausible thereby.
And where did you get that translation of the charter?
Originally posted by kmax87You got is all wrong man. The Zionists are at the heart of the division between Hamas and Fatah. As a matter of fact, the Zionists are to blame for the division of the Royal Houses as well. 😉
Isn't that a bit like observing that most of the Royal Houses of Europe were adepts of Freemasonry and yet they still shrived for dominance over one another. Go figure!
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Originally posted by spruce112358Sure that's in the Hamas Charter ... and you also mention one ( ... just one ? ... ) of the stupid things in there.
One would think from various posts that the Hamas charter called for killing Jews. It does not.
According to their charter, Hamas opposes Zionism, not Judaism. Hamas is against the existence of the Israeli Zionist government. In other words, they are for regime change in Palestine -- not for Jewish deaths per se.
[b]At several points, the Hamas charter affirms that Jews, Christians, and Muslims can live together in peace.
[/b]
Well let's examine the Hamas Charter a bit closer.
http://www.palestinecenter.org/cpap/documents/charter.html
From the introduction: "For our struggle against the Jews is extremely wide-ranging and grave, ... "
From article 7( ...you mentioned it already and labeled it "nonsense" ).
The prophet, prayer and peace be upon him, said: The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him! This will not apply to the Gharqad, which is a Jewish tree (cited by Bukhari and Muslim).
"Article Thirteen: Peaceful Solutions, [Peace] Initiatives and International Conferences
[Peace] initiatives, the so-called peaceful solutions, and the international conferences to resolve the Palestinian problem, are all contrary to the beliefs of the Islamic Resistance Movement. For renouncing any part of Palestine means renouncing part of the religion; the nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of its faith, the movement educates its members to adhere to its principles and to raise the banner of Allah over their homeland as they fight their Jihad" ......
"There is no solution to the Palestinian problem except by Jihad. The initiatives, proposals and International Conferences are but a waste of time, an exercise in futility."
Article Twenty-Two: The Powers which Support the Enemy ( ... the well-known anti-Semite lie of the Jewish world conspiracy in order to rule the world. Ivanhoe)
The enemies have been scheming for a long time, and they have consolidated their schemes, in order to achieve what they have achieved. They took advantage of key elements in unfolding events, and accumulated a huge and influential material wealth which they put to the service of implementing their dream. This wealth [permitted them to] take over control of the world media such as news agencies, the press, publication houses, broadcasting and the like. [They also used this] wealth to stir revolutions in various parts of the globe in order to fulfill their interests and pick the fruits. They stood behind the French and the Communist Revolutions and behind most of the revolutions we hear about here and there. They also used the money to establish clandestine organizations which are spreading around the world, in order to destroy societies and carry out Zionist interests. Such organizations are: the Freemasons, Rotary Clubs, Lions Clubs, B’nai B’rith and the like. All of them are destructive spying organizations. They also used the money to take over control of the Imperialist states and made them colonize many countries in order to exploit the wealth of those countries and spread their corruption therein. As regards local and world wars, it has come to pass and no one objects, that they stood behind World War I, so as to wipe out the Islamic Caliphate. They collected material gains and took control of many sources of wealth. They obtained the Balfour Declaration and established the League of Nations in order to rule the world by means of that organization. They also stood behind World War II, where they collected immense benefits from trading with war materials and prepared for the establishment of their state. They inspired the establishment of the United Nations and the Security Council to replace the League of Nations, in order to rule the world by their intermediary. There was no war that broke out anywhere without their fingerprints on it: “…As often as they light a fire for war, Allah extinguishes it. Their efforts are for corruption in the land and Allah loves not corrupters.” Sura V (Al-Ma’ida—the Tablespread), verse 64 The forces of Imperialism in both the Capitalist West and the Communist East support the enemy with all their might, in material and human terms, taking turns between themselves. When Islam appears, all the forces of Unbelief unite to confront it, because the Community of Unbelief is one. “Oh ye who believe! Take not for intimates others than your own folk, who would spare no pain to ruin you. Hatred is revealed by [the utterance of] their mouth, but that which their breasts hide is greater. We have made plain for you the revelations if you will understand.” Sura III, (Al-Imran), verse 118 It is not in vain that the verse ends with God’s saying: “If you will understand.”
Article Twenty-Eight (... anti-Semite lie of Jewish wordl conspiracy again. Ivanhoe)
The Zionist invasion is a mischievous one. It does not hesitate to take any road, or to pursue all despicable and repulsive means to fulfill its desires. It relies to a great extent, for its meddling and spying activities, on the clandestine organizations which it has established, such as the Freemasons, Rotary Clubs, Lions, and other spying associations. All those secret organizations, some which are overt, act for the interests of Zionism and under its directions, strive to demolish societies, to destroy values, to wreck answerableness, to totter virtues and to wipe out Islam. It stands behind the diffusion of drugs and toxics of all kinds in order to facilitate its control and expansion. The Arab states surrounding Israel are required to open their borders to the Jihad fighters, the sons of the Arab and Islamic peoples, to enable them to play their role and to join their efforts to those of their brothers among the Muslim Brothers in Palestine. The other Arab and Islamic states are required, at the very least, to facilitate the movement of the Jihad fighters from and to them. We cannot fail to remind every Muslim that when the Jews occupied Holy Jerusalem in 1967 and stood at the doorstep of the Blessed Aqsa Mosque, they shouted with joy: “Muhammad is dead, he left daughters behind.” Israel, by virtue of its being Jewish and of having a Jewish population, defies Islam and the Muslims. “Let the eyes of the cowards not fall asleep.”
From article 32:
For Zionist scheming has no end, and after Palestine they will covet expansion from the Nile to the Euphrates. Only when they have completed digesting the area on which they will have laid their hand, they will look forward to more expansion, etc. Their scheme has been laid out in the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, and their present [conduct] is the best proof of what is said there.
**The Protocols of the Elders of Zion is an anti-Semite document, a forgery, once fabricated by the former KGB.**( Ivanhoe)
http://www.palestinecenter.org/cpap/documents/charter.html
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So, to state that Hamas is "merely" a resistance movement which is "only" fighting Zionism and not the Jews is clearly an untruth.
After carefully reading the Hamas Charter we can conclude without a doubt that Hamas is an anti-Semite Jihadist movement. No more no less.
Originally posted by ivanhoeExactly.
Sure that's in the Hamas Charter ... and you also mention one ( ... just one ? ... ) of the stupid things in there.
[b]Well let's examine the Hamas Charter a bit closer.
http://www.palestinecenter.org/cpap/documents/charter.html
From the introduction: "For our struggle against the Jews is extremely wide-ranging and grave, ... "
From ar ...[text shortened]... e without a doubt that Hamas is an anti-Semite Jihadist movement. No more no less.[/b]
why are there people here who still doubt that the hamas have murderous objectives?
They probably have something agaisnt Israel, otherwise they wouldn't have such mistaken ideas.
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Originally posted by ivanhoeHow anyone can interpret this document as anything other than a declaration of war is beyond me. Based on this document alone Israel has every justification to wage total war on Hamas wherever they find them.
Sure that's in the Hamas Charter ... and you also mention one ( ... just one ? ... ) of the stupid things in there.
[b]Well let's examine the Hamas Charter a bit closer.
http://www.palestinecenter.org/cpap/documents/charter.html
[/b]
I say let them have at it.
Originally posted by ivanhoeThis is the version I was looking at:
Sure that's in the Hamas Charter ... and you also mention one ( ... just one ? ... ) of the stupid things in there.
[b]Well let's examine the Hamas Charter a bit closer.
http://www.palestinecenter.org/cpap/documents/charter.html
From the introduction: "For our struggle against the Jews is extremely wide-ranging and grave, ... "
From ar ...[text shortened]... e without a doubt that Hamas is an anti-Semite Jihadist movement. No more no less.[/b]
http://www.mideastweb.org/hamas.htm
Article 7 refers to Judgement Day in my version, which remains a mythical concept (so far).
As for peaceful initiatives, they actually have not worked. So that is an accurate assessment as far as it goes.
As for the conspiracy theories about Zionism -- well, that's neither here nor there. From their side, maybe that's what it looks like. I'm not really interested in Hamas' theories about the origins of Zionism. Their problem is more tangible -- Zionists in their midsts with tanks and F-16s.
Of more interest is how Hamas proposes to govern.
Originally posted by UllrPartly right, partly wrong. The charter is a declaration of war -- against Zionism, not against Jews.
How anyone can interpret this document as anything other than a declaration of war is beyond me. Based on this document alone Israel has every justification to wage total war on Hamas wherever they find them.
I say let them have at it.
And there is no way to justify taking someone's land and sending them into concentration camps -- Israel's unjustified actions came long before this document.
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Originally posted by spruce112358I agree that there was no justification for what Israel has done. But then you could go back even further into the past and realize that Jews were also once expelled from this land. The pendulum has swung back and forth for centuries. They're both there now. It will take total war to remove one or the other. Either that or they will have to learn to live in peace. Hamas has no intention of doing that based on their charter. So again I say it is war.
Partly right, partly wrong. The charter is a declaration of war -- against Zionism, not against Jews.
And there is no way to justify taking someone's land and sending them into concentration camps -- Israel's unjustified actions came long before this document.