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Debates Forum

Debates Forum

  1. Standard member bill718
    Enigma
    21 Nov '13 09:12
    Lost in the giddy Obamacare rollout 'pile on" are millions of Americans who cannot afford healthcare coverage, and will die premature deaths because of this. No one seems to care about them, the prevaling attitude seems to be "I've got mine, to hell with you!" It seems the politics of the problem is far more imporntant than solving the problem. Have Americans become so uncaring regarding there fellow citizens, that they'd rather see them die, than upset the status quo? It seems so...
  2. Standard member caissad4online
    Child of the Novelty
    21 Nov '13 09:22
    Originally posted by bill718
    Lost in the giddy Obamacare rollout 'pile on" are millions of Americans who cannot afford healthcare coverage, and will die premature deaths because of this. No one seems to care about them, the prevaling attitude seems to be "I've got mine, to hell with you!" It seems the politics of the problem is far more imporntant than solving the problem. Have American ...[text shortened]... re fellow citizens, that they'd rather see them die, than upset the status quo? It seems so...
    It appears to be so. It started back in the 1960's when states decided it was not economically feasible to treat the mentally ill and began dumping them out on the streets.:'(
  3. 21 Nov '13 11:14
    Originally posted by bill718
    Have Americans become so uncaring regarding there fellow citizens, that they'd rather see them die, than upset the status quo? It seems so...
    I notice that you didn't spare a thought for the starving billions found around the rest of the world. Surely feeding the starving takes precedence over health care?
    And the fact is that the rich of the world have always been so uncaring that they would rather see the poor die than upset the status quo. After all, anyone who does become caring, quite quickly stops being a member of 'the rich'.
  4. Subscriber Sleepyguy
    Reepy Rastardly Guy
    21 Nov '13 13:00
    Originally posted by bill718
    Lost in the giddy Obamacare rollout 'pile on" are millions of Americans who cannot afford healthcare coverage, and will die premature deaths because of this. No one seems to care about them, the prevaling attitude seems to be "I've got mine, to hell with you!" It seems the politics of the problem is far more imporntant than solving the problem. Have American ...[text shortened]... re fellow citizens, that they'd rather see them die, than upset the status quo? It seems so...
    Bill, this is all wrong. The fact is there are now millions more who cannot afford healthcare coverage, because of the ACA, and just as its opponents predicted. You don't get to hang this "no one seems to care" garbage around all our necks just because the lying incompetent you elected failed for all the reasons we told you he would.

    If you really give a damn about all the people who need affordable health care in this country, the first thing you need to do is admit that you chose wrong before, and it failed. Our government is too corrupt and/or incompetent to be in charge of all the things you wished it could do. If the steaming pile of Obamacare doesn't convince you of that I don't know what to tell you. But if you can just let that go, and stop spinning the self serving lie that the other side is just a bunch of heartless bastards, maybe we can move, you know, forward together.

    OK, have you let it go? Take a moment. I know it's hard. Deep breath.

    OK, with that behind us, what other ideas, besides the failed Obamacare, are out there that might improve health care availability for everyone, and that, importantly, you might get some agreement on from the people you have just decided to stop denigrating as bunch of heartless bastards? Off the top of my head, I know Mike Enzi has had a 10 point plan that Democrats have ignored for years.

    http://www.enzi.senate.gov/public/_files/BillText10StepstoTransformHealthCare.pdf

    There was also the Patient's Choice Act introduced by Paul Ryan back in 2009.

    http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d111:HR02520@@L&summ2=m&

    Heritage has a plan, but I don't think you're ready for a link to their website. Still too raw, I imagine. There are surely others, and they can all be conversation starters, but only if you are ready to have a conversation, you know, like grown ups do.
  5. 21 Nov '13 13:49
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    I notice that you didn't spare a thought for the starving billions found around the rest of the world. Surely feeding the starving takes precedence over health care?
    And the fact is that the rich of the world have always been so uncaring that they would rather see the poor die than upset the status quo. After all, anyone who does become caring, quite quickly stops being a member of 'the rich'.
    In the science forum, I never see you say we need to divert the money NASA receives to feeding the worlds starving populations.
  6. 21 Nov '13 14:04
    Originally posted by joe beyser
    In the science forum, I never see you say we need to divert the money NASA receives to feeding the worlds starving populations.
    I wonder how much of his own money he gives.
  7. Standard member KellyJay
    Walk your Faith
    21 Nov '13 14:39
    Originally posted by bill718
    Lost in the giddy Obamacare rollout 'pile on" are millions of Americans who cannot afford healthcare coverage, and will die premature deaths because of this. No one seems to care about them, the prevaling attitude seems to be "I've got mine, to hell with you!" It seems the politics of the problem is far more imporntant than solving the problem. Have American ...[text shortened]... re fellow citizens, that they'd rather see them die, than upset the status quo? It seems so...
    No one forgot them, the number of those who do not have health care just
    got larger, due to the fact Obamacare pushed off people who had healthcare
    so that number grew larger.
    Kelly
  8. Standard member sh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
    21 Nov '13 14:44
    Originally posted by bill718
    Lost in the giddy Obamacare rollout 'pile on" are millions of Americans who cannot afford healthcare coverage, and will die premature deaths because of this. No one seems to care about them, the prevaling attitude seems to be "I've got mine, to hell with you!" It seems the politics of the problem is far more imporntant than solving the problem. Have American ...[text shortened]... re fellow citizens, that they'd rather see them die, than upset the status quo? It seems so...
    Great idea, Bill. There are lots of people without health insurance. So, to solve that, let's take health insurance away from many people who are insured by legislating away the viability of their policies.

    Are you sure you didn't help draft the ACA?
  9. 21 Nov '13 15:21
    Originally posted by sh76
    Great idea, Bill. There are lots of people without health insurance. So, to solve that, let's take health insurance away from many people who are insured by legislating away the viability of their policies.

    Are you sure you didn't help draft the ACA?
    So when a person buys a policy they feel is right for them financially, they can not have it leaving them with no insurance and a fine? How did the country ever find itself in this lowly state?
  10. Standard member sh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
    21 Nov '13 15:57
    Originally posted by joe beyser
    So when a person buys a policy they feel is right for them financially, they can not have it leaving them with no insurance and a fine? How did the country ever find itself in this lowly state?
    ===How did the country ever find itself in this lowly state?===

    We made it into a political fight and didn't read the bill carefully enough and Democrats and fence sitters didn't put enough pressure on the Blue Dogs to kill the bill.

    Now we have to live with the fact that even if the ACA is repealed tomorrow, the damage is done, as there's no guarantee that the insurance companies will re-offer all of the old policies that have now been cancelled.

    If the ACA is not "fixed" when woe is we.
  11. 21 Nov '13 16:27
    Originally posted by bill718
    Lost in the giddy Obamacare rollout 'pile on" are millions of Americans who cannot afford healthcare coverage, and will die premature deaths because of this. No one seems to care about them, the prevaling attitude seems to be "I've got mine, to hell with you!" It seems the politics of the problem is far more imporntant than solving the problem. Have American ...[text shortened]... re fellow citizens, that they'd rather see them die, than upset the status quo? It seems so...
    I totally agree. The problem isn't in more health care, the problem is personal responsibility and education.

    If people eat right and exercise then they will usually live a vast majority of their lives without need of a doctor's services.

    Even so, Obamacare has caused needless pain and suffering. We need to get rid of the law, then work on ways of changing the mindset of the medical community as a way of milking money from people to a way of helping people. Our government has demonstrated that it is in the hands of those who want to exploit people, so the government is not the solution.
  12. Subscriber Sleepyguy
    Reepy Rastardly Guy
    21 Nov '13 16:40
    Originally posted by joe beyser
    How did the country ever find itself in this lowly state?
    Reagan explained it 50 years ago.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRdLpem-AAs#t=41
    “Now back in 1927 an American socialist, Norman Thomas, six times candidate for president on the Socialist Party ticket, said the American people would never vote for socialism. But he said under the name of liberalism the American people will adopt every fragment of the socialist program.

    There are many ways in which our government has invaded the precincts of private citizens, the method of earning a living. Our government is in business to the extent over owning more than 19,000 businesses covering different lines of activity. This amounts to a fifth of the total industrial capacity of the United States.

    But at the moment I’d like to talk about another way. Because this threat is with us and at the moment is more imminent.

    One of the traditional methods of imposing statism or socialism on a people has been by way of medicine. It’s very easy to disguise a medical program as a humanitarian project. Most people are a little reluctant to oppose anything that suggests medical care for people who possibly can’t afford it.

    Now, the American people, if you put it to them about socialized medicine and gave them a chance to choose, would unhesitatingly vote against it. We had an example of this. Under the Truman administration it was proposed that we have a compulsory health insurance program for all people in the United States, and, of course, the American people unhesitatingly rejected this.

    So, with the American people on record as not wanting socialized medicine, Congressman Ferrand introduced the Ferrand Bill. This was the idea that all people of social security age should be brought under a program of compulsory health insurance. Now this would not only be our senior citizens, this would be the dependents and those who are disabled, this would be young people if they are dependents of someone eligible for Social Security.

    Now, Congressman Ferrand brought the program out on that idea of just for that group of people. But Congressman Ferrand was subscribing to this foot in the door philosophy, because he said “if we can only break through and get our foot inside the door, then we can expand the progam after that.”

    What can we do about this? Well, you and I can do a great deal. We can write to our congressmen and our senators. We can say right now that we want no further encroachment on these individual liberties and freedoms. And at the moment, the key issue is, we do not want socialized medicine.

    In Washington today, 40,000 letters, less than a hundred per congressman, are evidence of a trend in public thinking.

    Representative Halleck of Indiana has said, “When the American people want something from Congress, regardless of its political complexion, if they make their wants known, Congress does what the people want.”

    So write, and if your this man writes back to you and tells you that he too is for free enterprise, that we have these great services and so forth, that must be performed by government, don’t let him get away with it. Show that you have not been convinced. Write a letter right back and tell him that you believe in government economy and fiscal responsibility; that you know governments don’t tax to get the money the need; governments will always find a need for the money they get and that you demand the continuation of our traditional free enterprise system. You and I can do this. The only way we can do it is by writing to our congressmen even we believe that he is on our side to begin with. Write to strengthen his hand. Give him the ability to stand before his colleagues in Congress and say “I have heard from my constituents and this is what they want.”

    Write those letters now; call your friends and tell them to write them. If you don’t, this program I promise you will pass just as surely as the sun will come up tomorrow and behind it will come other federal programs that will invade every area of freedom as we have known it in this country. Until, one day, as Norman Thomas said we will awake to find that we have socialism. And if you don’t do this and if I don’t do it, one of these days you and I are going to spend our sunset years telling our children and our children’s children, what it once was like in America when men were free.”

    - Ronald Reagan
  13. 22 Nov '13 02:38
    Originally posted by caissad4
    It appears to be so. It started back in the 1960's when states decided it was not economically feasible to treat the mentally ill and began dumping them out on the streets.:'(
    Your memory of that differs from mine. The impetus for closing mental institutions was from leftist civil libertarians who objected to people being kept incarcerated long term, sometimes for life without even a trial.
  14. Standard member caissad4online
    Child of the Novelty
    22 Nov '13 02:55
    Originally posted by normbenign
    Your memory of that differs from mine. The impetus for closing mental institutions was from leftist civil libertarians who objected to people being kept incarcerated long term, sometimes for life without even a trial.
    Look for just how good ol' Ronnie Reagan balanced the budget when he was governor of Calif. I had a boss who was living there when that happened and he described to me the high numbers of the mentally ill just roaming the streets. He thought it was immoral and borderline criminal. And did I mention that he was a conservative ? Oh, how soon we forget !
  15. Standard member sasquatch672
    Don't Like It Leave
    22 Nov '13 03:04
    Originally posted by bill718
    Lost in the giddy Obamacare rollout 'pile on" are millions of Americans who cannot afford healthcare coverage, and will die premature deaths because of this. No one seems to care about them, the prevaling attitude seems to be "I've got mine, to hell with you!" It seems the politics of the problem is far more imporntant than solving the problem. Have American ...[text shortened]... re fellow citizens, that they'd rather see them die, than upset the status quo? It seems so...
    No, I think there's a tremendous amount of concern for the millions of Americans who have lost their insurance because of Obamacare. I think a sensible bipartisan agreement would have addressed the people who lacked health care without putting one-sixth of the American economy in a wood chipper. The nightmare scenario for Democrats, which is inevitable, is that Obamacare will cause mass waves of cancellations, but, because the website is so badly flawed, these people won't be able to buy coverage. There will be cancer patients, people with chronic illnesses, newborns, and many others whose coverage will be disrupted or discontinued.

    Obama is a fool. This law will be repealed by a veto-proof majority in both Houses, or Democrats in Congress may as well start packing. This is a disaster for the American people.