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Debates Forum

Debates Forum

  1. 15 Jun '09 23:23 / 3 edits
    All indications are that the elections in Iran were rigged, so what does the US have to say about that? What can they say about that? After all, Obama did not win the popular majority vote in his own party yet won the nomination and McCain won the nomination in the Republican party long before many in the party had a chance to even vote for or against him.

    Are there really any democracies out there or is it just all smoke and mirrors?
  2. 15 Jun '09 23:45
    Originally posted by whodey
    All indications are that the elections in Iran were rigged, so what does the US have to say about that? What can they say about that? After all, Obama did not win the popular majority vote in his own party yet won the nomination and McCain won the nomination in the Republican party long before many in the party had a chance to even vote for or against him.

    Are there really any democracies out there or is it just all smoke and mirrors?
    You just figuring that out now?!
  3. 15 Jun '09 23:50
    Originally posted by utherpendragon
    You just figuring that out now?!
    Actually I've known it for a long time now, but I was just thought Obama's repsonse to it was a little curious. He said something to the effect that he respected their ability to govern their own affairs, but was a little disappointed they then turned around and murdered protestors.
  4. Subscriber FMF
    a.k.a. John W Booth
    16 Jun '09 00:44
    Originally posted by whodey
    Obama did not win the popular majority vote in his own party yet won the nomination and McCain won the nomination in the Republican party long before many in the party had a chance to even vote for or against him.
    So now you are questioning the validity of Obama's election victory over McCain?
  5. 16 Jun '09 02:33
    Originally posted by FMF
    So now you are questioning the validity of Obama's election victory over McCain?
    I am questioning the "democratic" process of the American political system. Do note I mentioned McCain as well.
  6. 16 Jun '09 14:00
    Originally posted by whodey
    All indications are that the elections in Iran were rigged, so what does the US have to say about that? What can they say about that? After all, Obama did not win the popular majority vote in his own party yet won the nomination and McCain won the nomination in the Republican party long before many in the party had a chance to even vote for or against him.

    Are there really any democracies out there or is it just all smoke and mirrors?
    No democracy exists. I'm glad you've seen the light.

    Iran's about as close as you can get though.
  7. Standard member sh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
    16 Jun '09 14:09 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by whodey
    All indications are that the elections in Iran were rigged, so what does the US have to say about that? What can they say about that? After all, Obama did not win the popular majority vote in his own party yet won the nomination and McCain won the nomination in the Republican party long before many in the party had a chance to even vote for or against him.

    Are there really any democracies out there or is it just all smoke and mirrors?
    The primaries aren't required to be part of the democratic process. They are run by the parties, which are private entities. They don't even have to have primaries if they don't want to. In the old days, only some states had primaries and the nominees were decided at the convention.

    If the parties have rules for how to choose a nominee, then those are the applicable rules. Whether Hillary got more votes is irrelevant. Obama won the nomination based on the rules as they existed at the time. He won it fair and square. Same is true for McCain.

    If Hillary would have liked, she could have run for President on a different party line. That would have given everyone a chance to vote for her if they so chose. The fact that she chose not to do so because she wouldn't win (and for other political reasons) is not anti-Democratic, any more than it's anti-Democratic that we couldn't vote for Gore because he chose not to run.

    The primaries are what they are. They're fun and exciting and maybe not perfectly fair. But you have the general election to vote for whomever you like.
  8. 16 Jun '09 15:13
    Originally posted by sh76
    The primaries aren't required to be part of the democratic process. They are run by the parties, which are private entities. They don't even have to have primaries if they don't want to. In the old days, only some states had primaries and the nominees were decided at the convention.

    If the parties have rules for how to choose a nominee, then those are the ap ...[text shortened]... aybe not perfectly fair. But you have the general election to vote for whomever you like.
    Agreed. The two party monopoly system has circumvented the "democratic" process. So is that suppose to make me feel any better? Sure you can vote for Joe Blow who is not from one of the two parties, that is, if you want to vote for a loser.
  9. 16 Jun '09 15:15 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by scherzo
    No democracy exists. I'm glad you've seen the light.

    Iran's about as close as you can get though.
    How do you figure Iran is any better? I don't recall Obama murdering any McCain supporters or Hillary supporters for that matter. He didn't come after me for saying Hillary won the popular vote in his own party.
  10. 16 Jun '09 15:35
    Originally posted by whodey
    How do you figure Iran is any better? I don't recall Obama murdering any McCain supporters or Hillary supporters for that matter. He didn't come after me for saying Hillary won the popular vote in his own party.
    If McCain supporters had rioted in the street and there was no such thing as a lame-duck period, then I'm sure Obama would have cracked down. And it would have been justified.
  11. Standard member sh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
    16 Jun '09 15:40
    Originally posted by whodey
    Agreed. The two party monopoly system has circumvented the "democratic" process.
    Perot '92, baby!


    Oh; wait.


  12. 16 Jun '09 16:00
    Originally posted by whodey
    Agreed. The two party monopoly system has circumvented the "democratic" process. So is that suppose to make me feel any better? Sure you can vote for Joe Blow who is not from one of the two parties, that is, if you want to vote for a loser.
    You should vote for the best candidate in your view no matter what their chance at winning.

    If you refuse to vote for the person you want because they will probably lose then you're just supporting the two party system that you hate so much.

    If a third party starts to garner enough votes then they will start to gain respectability and momentum through the next election.
  13. 16 Jun '09 16:02
    Originally posted by scherzo
    If McCain supporters had rioted in the street and there was no such thing as a lame-duck period, then I'm sure Obama would have cracked down. And it would have been justified.
    Do you really think Obama would have put protesters and McCain himself in jail?

    That would be a good way to lose votes.

    It really depends on your definition of "cracked down". He would be right to do something to stop violence, but he'd be wrong and not justified to imprison people for criticizing the election or challenging it peacefully.
  14. 16 Jun '09 18:46
    Originally posted by PsychoPawn
    Do you really think Obama would have put protesters and McCain himself in jail?

    That would be a good way to lose votes.

    It really depends on your definition of "cracked down". He would be right to do something to stop violence, but he'd be wrong and not justified to imprison people for criticizing the election or challenging it peacefully.
    Except what's going on in Iran isn't peaceful.
  15. 16 Jun '09 19:39
    Originally posted by scherzo
    Except what's going on in Iran isn't peaceful.
    Some of it isn't, but the stories of guards shooting into crowds doesn't really help - there are better ways.

    Like I said, it depends on what you mean by "crack down". Putting the leader of the opposition into house arrest is ridiculous and definitely a bad sign.