22 Sep 20
If it wasn't for the meat industry there would be no viruses mutating because animals don't naturally mix in the way they have at the meat markets of Wuhan in China.
There would be less deforestation because animals would not need large areas for grazing. And we wouldn't need to grow large amounts of soya to feed those animals.
There would be less heart disease because there is no cholesterol in plant based fats (our livers produce cholesterol for building cell membranes and producing hormones. Our bodies are apt at this and animals are too and we get theirs as well if we eat them).
I think it's time.
22 Sep 20
@yo-its-me saidVery hard to disagree so I’ll agree, we’ve probably reached a point in our evolution when we can stop murdering stuff just because it taste nice rather than a survival thing.
If it wasn't for the meat industry there would be no viruses mutating because animals don't naturally mix in the way they have at the meat markets of Wuhan in China.
There would be less deforestation because animals would not need large areas for grazing. And we wouldn't need to grow large amounts of soya to feed those animals.
There would be less heart disease because th ...[text shortened]... are apt at this and animals are too and we get theirs as well if we eat them).
I think it's time.
22 Sep 20
@kevcvs57 saidMaybe for industrialized places like the U.S., but not so for under-developed nations.
Very hard to disagree so I’ll agree, we’ve probably reached a point in our evolution when we can stop murdering stuff just because it taste nice rather than a survival thing.
Maybe the problem has more to do with corporate farming than meat. Smaller, local farm like those owned by Amish societies would probably not have the same issues.
Industrialized farms give no thought to the actual care of animals, raise them inhumanely and pack them in as tightly as possible to maximize profits. It's these types of farms responsible for bird flu, mad cow disease, and COVID.
22 Sep 20
@vivify saidWhat about the cholesterol?
Maybe for industrialized places like the U.S., but not so for under-developed nations.
Maybe the problem has more to do with corporate farming than meat. Smaller, local farm like those owned by Amish societies would probably not have the same issues.
Industrialized farms give no thought to the actual care of animals, raise them inhumanely and pack them in as tightly ...[text shortened]... o maximize profits. It's these types of farms responsible for bird flu, mad cow disease, and COVID.
It's worth stopping just for that isn't it?
"Of the 56.9 million deaths worldwide in 2016, more than half (54😵 were due to the top 10 causes. Ischaemic heart disease and stroke are the world’s biggest killers, accounting for a combined 15.2 million deaths in 2016. These diseases have remained the leading causes of death globally in the last 15 years."https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/the-top-10-causes-of-death
22 Sep 20
@vivify saidWell if it is the case that not eating meat would be detrimental to societies that are already struggling to feed themselves then that should be looked at on a case by case footing.
Maybe for industrialized places like the U.S., but not so for under-developed nations.
Maybe the problem has more to do with corporate farming than meat. Smaller, local farm like those owned by Amish societies would probably not have the same issues.
Industrialized farms give no thought to the actual care of animals, raise them inhumanely and pack them in as tightly ...[text shortened]... o maximize profits. It's these types of farms responsible for bird flu, mad cow disease, and COVID.
But I’m not sure it’s easier to grow feed for cattle than it is to grow feed for vegetarians.
Survival or malnourishment would certainly be reason enough for an opt out of a global vegetarian diet.
22 Sep 20
@yo-its-me saidThere's nothing that mentions meat in that link; it does mention factors like smoking, which cause heart disease.
What about the cholesterol?
It's worth stopping just for that isn't it?
"Of the 56.9 million deaths worldwide in 2016, more than half (54😵 were due to the top 10 causes. Ischaemic heart disease and stroke are the world’s biggest killers, accounting for a combined 15.2 million deaths in 2016. These diseases have remained the leading causes of death globally in the last 15 years."https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/the-top-10-causes-of-death
There is definitely an argument for going vegan; for moral, environmental, and health reasons.
A few things: there are meats that are considered quite healthy, mainly fish. As far as I'm aware, fish doesn't increase risk of heart attack or increase cholesterol. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Also, it's not just the meat itself; industrialized farms frequently use chemicals like growth hormones, anti-biotics and unnatural feed for their animals. This is really what adds to the unhealthiness of eating meat.
But overall, barring issues of poverty where meat may be a necessity, giving up meat is far better for the planet.
22 Sep 20
@kevcvs57 saidThis is like saying we shouldn't switch to renewable energy because jobs like coal-mining will be lost. If something is causing harm to the environment, people's health and to society, we should first look at how much harm it's doing, and how it would benefit society to get rid of it.
Well if it is the case that not eating meat would be detrimental to societies that are already struggling to feed themselves then that should be looked at on a case by case footing.
But I’m not sure it’s easier to grow feed for cattle than it is to grow feed for vegetarians.
Survival or malnourishment would certainly be reason enough for an opt out of a global vegetarian diet.
Once we determine something like meat or coal is better off not having around (or least greatly reducing), we can then consider the best course of action to safely and responsibly transition away to a better alternative. It doesn't have to be immediate, transitioning away from something like meat, coal, etc., can be a gradual process, starting with areas that can best handling get rid of it.
22 Sep 20
It’s not time to stop eating meat.
Imagine all those extra “healthy” people not dying? Living to a hundred, chewing carrots and guzzling health and social care costs.
Anyone who makes sauces knows that you need meat products to get it tasty. Anyone who eats pasta and cheese know that bacon makes it 100x better.
If nobody ate meat, the deer and boar would end up plundering the farmsteads, meaning we’d have to shoot them to save the crops (or introduce wolves). And then not eat them?
Now, I agree that the industrialized meat industry needs sorting out. And I’m perfectly fine with eating game, free-range, etc. And I’m perfectly fine paying double the price for good quality.
But not giving children meat and fish, is very unhealthy for them. Vegan diets especially.
As for pandemics; if the problem is wet markets, stop wet markets. If the problem is feeding cows beef... stop feeding cows beef.
Other than that, in the long run, antibiotic resistant TB is going to be far more damaging to humanity than a Covid. And that’s got nothing to do with eating meat.
22 Sep 20
One may as well ask whether it's time to stop mass international travel. With only small numbers of easily controlled people traveling between countries the rate the virus could spread outside the area it originated would be about walking pace (c.f. Bubonic Plague), and by the time it had spread outside China there would be a vaccine and there would not be a pandemic.
23 Sep 20
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@vivify saidI’m just addressing the personal morality question of eating meat it’s not much different to the morality of cannibalism if it’s for survival then it’s ok IMO
This is like saying we shouldn't switch to renewable energy because jobs like coal-mining will be lost. If something is causing harm to the environment, people's health and to society, we should first look at how much harm it's doing, and how it would benefit society to get rid of it.
Once we determine something like meat or coal is better off not having around (or least ...[text shortened]... eat, coal, etc., can be a gradual process, starting with areas that can best handling get rid of it.
Vegan and vegetarian diets are definitely better for the individual and the environment.
If it comes to burning coal or freezing to death then I’m burning coal. If a society doesn’t have access to alternative energies like wind, wave, or solar energy then they’ll either have to go nuclear or fossil fuel.
23 Sep 20
@shavixmir saidWhy healthy in inverted comers? It is a healthier way of living, less of a drain on the health system for all ages, not just old age and the car needed in old age is less offensive- healthy gut bacteria means they're more pleasant to clean after a accident for example!
It’s not time to stop eating meat.
Imagine all those extra “healthy” people not dying? Living to a hundred, chewing carrots and guzzling health and social care costs.
But not giving children meat and fish, is very unhealthy for them. Vegan diets especially.
What about meat and fish do children need that they can't get from plants?
23 Sep 20
@yo-its-me saidVitamin B12
Why healthy in inverted comers? It is a healthier way of living, less of a drain on the health system for all ages, not just old age and the car needed in old age is less offensive- healthy gut bacteria means they're more pleasant to clean after a accident for example!
What about meat and fish do children need that they can't get from plants?
In fact the People most fit to cease Eating meat are men after they passed the age of about 25...
Women in General are more likely to become vegetarians, but they are the ones who Need the B12 more than the men.
23 Sep 20
@ponderable saidYes, OK, that's true.
Vitamin B12
In fact the People most fit to cease Eating meat are men after they passed the age of about 25...
Women in General are more likely to become vegetarians, but they are the ones who Need the B12 more than the men.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6611390/
Infants and Children
Two case-control studies among infants (29) and children (30) investigated the effects of a macrobiotic dietary regime (no animal foods) on vitamin B12 biomarkers. Plasma vitamin B12 concentrations were significantly lower among macro-biotic fed infants (n = 47) as compared to their omnivorous fed controls (n = 56) (29). In another study, adolescents who had received a macrobiotic diet until 6 y of age and had then switched a diet containing animal products (n = 73) still had significantly lower vitamin B12 concentrations and higher concentrations MMA, but comparable Hcy concentrations, as compared to their age-matched controls who consumed an omnivorous diet from birth onwards. These results suggest that switching from a macrobiotic diet to moderate consumption of animal food products is inadequate to restore vitamin B12 status among children with a low vitamin B12 in early childhood
But a supplement is enough isn't it? Perhaps everyone should take B12 supplements. B12 is neither from plants or animals. It's made by bacteria and archaea.
From the same link above, studies have shown a protective effect of multivitamins containing vitamin B12 on global cognition (82), brain shrinkage (83), or quality of life scores (84).
23 Sep 20
@yo-its-me saidSupplements
Yes, OK, that's true.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6611390/
Infants and Children
Two case-control studies among infants (29) and children (30) investigated the effects of a macrobiotic dietary regime (no animal foods) on vitamin B12 biomarkers. Plasma vitamin B12 concentrations were significantly lower among macro-biotic fed infants (n = 47) as compar ...[text shortened]... ning vitamin B12 on global cognition (82), brain shrinkage (83), or quality of life scores (84).
* are a method for the rich part of the global Population
* are less facile to dose (beware of the much will help more!)
In fact I am quite sympathetic to the case of reducing meat consumption. But I don't see that as a global possibillity for the next few decades. Switching from "Supermarket cheap" meat to more sustainably meat of higher qulaity is something I think could be achievable in my (expected) Lifetime to a Degree that we see a good effect.