It was a brilliantly done documentary, driving home just what we have lost in America. We Americans have lost the America we thought we had 50 years ago. The death rate statistics put us just better then Guyana and we are supposed to have this advanced medical system here. I am wondering just what can we do as Americans to stop the evil insurance system who now literally owns America, how can we reverse the near trillion dollar corrupt system here? I for one am certainly going to write letters to my congressmen and senators but that for sure will not be anything like enough. It needs grassroots participation in a nationwide effort to get rid of this corrupt system, senators bought off, even Hillary Clinton received $800,000 from the medical companies when her health inititive failed under Clinton.
Everyone in America should see that movie, republicans, Democrats, Libertarians, Independents. This goes WAY beyond partisan politics, it strikes at the heart of just who has been bought off by the medical profession. I myself was the victim of the medical profession in California when I was between jobs and had to have a medical proceedure, that was done at a university run hospital, the proceedure done by interns, very painful, and when it was over they said, leave now but I was in pain, groggy from the drugs they injected me with and tired and had to lay down on some steps. Rather than someone coming up and asking what was wrong, I was treated like a drug addict or indigent and the security guards kicked me out to try to make my way home on a bus. That was a horrible experience I chalked up to circumstance but now I realize it was one piece of the corrupt system we live in now. I am going to do something, not sure what but cannot live with this sick system we have here now. Moore took some ailing 9-11 volunteers who are being denied medical treatment (Can you picture that, even?) and found out the Al Quida prisoners at Guantanamo are getting the best medical care money can buy and of course for free, so he got a boat and went there and tried to get in but all he got was sirens going off like he was invading, he was saying with a bullhorn these 9-11 volunteers needed medical help and of course you can view it as a publicity stunt but these were real people who were not getting treatment in the US, then he took them to Cuba and went to a local hospital and they were immediatly seen and treated and the medication was extremely cheap and the treatment free. Then spontaneously, a local fire brigade opened up their arms and organized an honor line as one fireman to another in a show of brotherhood, standing in a double line of honor and the volunteers were literally in tears. That from our supposed enemy.
It seems the only place left where my own wife can get treatment for her respitory problem we can't get treated here because I lost my insurance when my company downsized and I was made a contract worker and can't afford the $12,000 per year for independant medical insurance. Imagine health care that just for the premium cost's more than most peoples homes per year and that is not the whole story, then there is still the co-pay which can be tens of thousands of dollars even if you have 'good' benefits. The system is indeed as the title of the movie says, SICKO.
Originally posted by sonhouseThe problem is not the insurance companies. The problem is government regulation -- once again!
It was a brilliantly done documentary, driving home just what we have lost in America. We Americans have lost the America we thought we had 50 years ago. The death rate statistics put us just better then Guyana and we are supposed to have this advanced medical system here. I am wondering just what can we do as Americans to stop the evil insurance system who ...[text shortened]... en if you have 'good' benefits. The system is indeed as the title of the movie says, SICKO.
As Milton Friedman says, when the government regulates a system, the system and the government sit down together and decide what is "best" for the people. The people get no say. Here, the government has sat down with physicians and decided "who can practice medicine" and "how medical practice shall be regulated". So naturally, medical care is enormously expensive.
Physicians and hospitals do not have to compete for patients because the supply of physicians is artificially restricted by the number of accredited medical schools and the number of physicians who are board-certified. When there is no competition, prices soar.
Simply put, the impediments in the way of people becoming physicians and health care workers have to be lowered. Then the market will take care of the problem.
The barrier? Physicians themselves. They like the current system and any attempt to change it will result in a huge outcry about how "unsafe it would be to have anyone who hasn't been to medical school for 18 years to treat your daughter's runny nose." Yeah, right.
Originally posted by spruce112358Yet in Cuba they seem to have got it right - or is that Government run rather than government regulated?
The problem is not the insurance companies. The problem is government regulation -- once again!
In South Africa the government tried to push pharmacies to lower their prices on medicines because they felt the markups were unreasonable. I am not sure how successful that has been.
I was brought up in Zambia which had free (though very low standard) health care for all. It is now no longer completely free but still fairly cheap and if you have the money there is the private option which costs more.
Originally posted by spruce112358It goes deeper than that, the polititicians are simply bought out by the medical companies whose primary goal has nothing to do with the interest of the patient, the primary interest is to make money no matter who dies or gets hurt. It's that simple. We have to completely tear down the existing power structure and replace it with one actually interested in getting people well and furthermore, something not discussed in the US, preventative medicine, urging people to stop smoking, don't drink so much, reduce the stress in your life, these are big issues in Europe but given lip service here in the US because it is not in the best financial interests of the medical companies to make people well. What they want is to make people dependent. That continues their huge profit margins. Remember, if it was just another billion dollar industry, things can be done. It is not a billion dollar industry, it is a multi TRILLION dollar industry so there is practically an infinite amount of dollars that are freely spent on simple bribes to senators and congressmen who play along. That is the real problem.
The problem is not the insurance companies. The problem is government regulation -- once again!
As Milton Friedman says, when the government regulates a system, the system and the government sit down together and decide what is "best" for the people. The people get no say. Here, the government has sat down with physicians and decided "who can practic ...[text shortened]... been to medical school for 18 years to treat your daughter's runny nose." Yeah, right.
Originally posted by twhiteheadThe last time Castro had an operation he brought in a doctor and equipment from Spain. Take that into account when you proclaim Cuban healthcare a success.
Yet in Cuba they seem to have got it right - or is that Government run rather than government regulated?
In South Africa the government tried to push pharmacies to lower their prices on medicines because they felt the markups were unreasonable. I am not sure how successful that has been.
I was brought up in Zambia which had free (though very low sta ...[text shortened]... e but still fairly cheap and if you have the money there is the private option which costs more.
Originally posted by sonhouseLike all of Michael Moore's work, "Sicko" is not a documentary, but rather falls under the category of agitprop. In fact, one of the most natural choices for portrayal in the piece – namely, the millions of Americans who are perfectly happy with their health insurance – never once appear on screen. Before you get all wobbly, and decide to take write your Congressman or take "direct action" to insure that all Americans have European/Canadian/Cuban-style health care, you should read what Moore's detractors have to say about the failings of "universal" health care:
It was a brilliantly done documentary, driving home just what we have lost in America. We Americans have lost the America we thought we had 50 years ago. The death rate statistics put us just better then Guyana and we are supposed to have this advanced medical system here. I am wondering just what can we do as Americans to stop the evil insurance system who ...[text shortened]... en if you have 'good' benefits. The system is indeed as the title of the movie says, SICKO.
http://ca.today.reuters.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=topNews&storyID=2007-06-25T131410Z_01_N15193062_RTRIDST_0_NEWS-CUBA-HEALTHCARE-COL.XML&archived=False
http://www.ncpa.org/sub/dpd/index.php?Article_ID=14709
http://www.ncpa.org/sub/dpd/index.php?Article_ID=14714
http://www.ncpa.org/sub/dpd/index.php?Article_ID=14715
http://www.ncpa.org/sub/dpd/index.php?Article_ID=14711
Originally posted by MerkA large number of doctors in Zambia are Cuban. Donated by Cuba.
The last time Castro had an operation he brought in a doctor and equipment from Spain. Take that into account when you proclaim Cuban healthcare a success.
The success of health care should not be measured by the standard enjoyed by the President or supa-rich (Zambias presidents goto South Africa or the UK). but by the average health care for the ordinary person (which was the issue being addressed in this thread).
If you are claiming that the average Spaniard can has ready (and affordable) access to the same treatment that Castro took advantage of then that is another matter.
Originally posted by twhiteheadI think the point is that since there is no profit motive in health care (which is the same as any other good or service) in single-payer countries, there is no incentive for new drugs, treatments, medical devices to be developed. Moreover, there is little incentive for highly trained surgeons to remain in those countries when they can make far more in the private field. In other words, Cuba will never develop these things in their system.
A large number of doctors in Zambia are Cuban. Donated by Cuba.
The success of health care should not be measured by the standard enjoyed by the President or supa-rich (Zambias presidents goto South Africa or the UK). but by the average health care for the ordinary person (which was the issue being addressed in this thread).
If you are claiming that t ...[text shortened]... ordable) access to the same treatment that Castro took advantage of then that is another matter.
Originally posted by der schwarze RitterYou could be right. But most of the world is doing quite well by letting the US and Europe do all the 'developing' and then producing 'generics' for a fraction of the price.
I think the point is that since there is no profit motive in health care (which is the same as any other good or service) in single-payer countries, there is no incentive for new drugs, treatments, medical devices to be developed. Moreover, there is little incentive for highly trained surgeons to remain in those countries when they can make far more in the private field. In other words, Cuba will never develop these things in their system.
At the end of the day the question is: Does the average Cuban receive better health care than the average US citizen? Also you must take into account the size of the two economies and the fact that the US has put a lot of economic pressure on Cuba.
Originally posted by twhiteheadNope. Just that Cuba isn't the utopian healthcare system that some like to think. If Castro has to bring in help, what does that say of how good the healthcare is for the poor.
A large number of doctors in Zambia are Cuban. Donated by Cuba.
The success of health care should not be measured by the standard enjoyed by the President or supa-rich (Zambias presidents goto South Africa or the UK). but by the average health care for the ordinary person (which was the issue being addressed in this thread).
If you are claiming that t ...[text shortened]... ordable) access to the same treatment that Castro took advantage of then that is another matter.
One thing's for certain, Castro does train a lot of doctors. Equipment on the other hand is an entirely different story.
Originally posted by der schwarze RitterOf course you are too high and mighty and haughty to actually watch the movie to decide for yourself what the movie is all about. Dollars.
Like all of Michael Moore's work, "Sicko" is not a documentary, but rather falls under the category of agitprop. In fact, one of the most natural choices for portrayal in the piece – namely, the millions of Americans who are perfectly happy with their health insurance – never once appear on screen. Before you get all wobbly, and decide to take wr ...[text shortened]... dpd/index.php?Article_ID=14715
http://www.ncpa.org/sub/dpd/index.php?Article_ID=14711
Originally posted by der schwarze RitterDid you actually read my opening thread? Did you read what happened to me personally and now my wife? Millions of americans are NOT perfectly happy with their health insurance. Our health insurance system sucks from the top down. ESPECIALLY from the top.
I think the point is that since there is no profit motive in health care (which is the same as any other good or service) in single-payer countries, there is no incentive for new drugs, treatments, medical devices to be developed. Moreover, there is little incentive for highly trained surgeons to remain in those countries when they can make far more in the private field. In other words, Cuba will never develop these things in their system.
See the movie. He didn't just roast republicans if thats what you are afraid of.
Originally posted by sonhouseActually, it's not that I'm so "high and mighty and haughty" as you put it, but rather I made a decision years ago after watching Moore's ham-fisted effort at gun control(Bowling for Columbine) that I'd never put another dollar into his deep pockets again. Moore, like a lot of "sickos" in Hollywood, preaches socialism while wallowing in the aisle of capitalism, and he gets very rich doing it. I'm very well versed on both sides of the health care debate and don't need some fat, shabbily-dressed charlatan to make up my mind for me. Lastly, my colleague, who is a health policy expert saw the film last week at a media preview and told me that although Moore can be funny, the film still has many flaws: only the worst anecdotes are presented (some date from the 1970s), none of the people who are satisfied with their health insurance are interviewed, none of the people who are unhappy with the health care in single-payer systems are interviewed, etc. You should read some of the links I posted earlier if you want to find out more about what socialized medicine is like.
Of course you are too high and mighty and haughty to actually watch the movie to decide for yourself what the movie is all about. Dollars.