Liars award

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
america is better in many areas than it was during the bush administration, yet they whine about it.[/b]

Like wut?

Originally posted by whodey
Like wut?

Obama:

1. Passed health care reform.
2. Passed a stimulus package.
3. Passed Wall Street reform.
4. Ended the war in Iraq.
5. Began draw down of war in Afghanistan,
6. eliminated Osama Bin Laden.
7. Recapitalized banks through stress tests.
8. Repealed "don't ask don't tell".
9. Got rid of Gaddafi.
10. Told Mubarak to go putting the US on the right side of the Arab Spring without using our troops.
11.Reversed Bush's torture policies.
12. Kicked banks out of federal student loan program and expanded Pell Grant spending.
13. Boosted fuel efficiency standards.
14. Increased support for veterans.
15. Credit card reforms
16. Path to closing dirtiest power plants.
17. Lilly Ledbetter Fair Play Act.
18. Food Safety Modernization Act increased FDA ability to be sure food is safe to eat.
19. Expanded wilderness and watershed protections.
20. Expanded hate crime protections.
21. Cracked down on for profit degree mill colleges.

I could go on. I'm sure some of you do not consider many of the above positive accomplishments. The real problem with politics in the US, and probably elsewhere, is plutocracy; rule by the rich.

Originally posted by Phranny
Obama:

1. Passed health care reform.
2. Passed a stimulus package.
3. Passed Wall Street reform.
4. Ended the war in Iraq.
5. Began draw down of war in Afghanistan,
6. eliminated Osama Bin Laden.
7. Recapitalized banks through stress tests.
8. Repealed "don't ask don't tell".
9. Got rid of Gaddafi.
10. Told Mubarak to go putting the US on the rig ...[text shortened]... e real problem with politics in the US, and probably elsewhere, is plutocracy; rule by the rich.

Like any President, he's done some good things. I wouldn't give him a zero, but I'd give him maybe a 4.

===1. Passed health care reform.===

Reform for the sake of reform isn't always good. The jury's very much still out on the ACA and leaning towards the negative.

===2. Passed a stimulus package.===

Very unclear whether it did what it was supposed to do and added a mountain to the federal deficit.

===3. Passed Wall Street reform.===

Some credit; but jury's out on whether they will work.

===4. Ended the war in Iraq.===

Was winding down anyway. No big deal.

===5. Began draw down of war in Afghanistan,===

Some would say he kept it going too long.

===6. eliminated Osama Bin Laden.===

Yes, good accomplishment there. I hope you give Bush credit for eliminating Hussein by the same token.

===7. Recapitalized banks through stress tests.===

His handling of the bank crisis in general probably could have been done more effectively, but I'm inclined to give him some credit at least.

===8. Repealed "don't ask don't tell".===

Fine. No problem with it, but no big deal for most people.

===9. Got rid of Gaddafi.===

Good job.

===10. Told Mubarak to go putting the US on the right side of the Arab Spring without using our troops.===

Heh. Turns out the Egyptian democratic government was *real* stable.

===11.Reversed Bush's torture policies.===

Ho hum.

===12. Kicked banks out of federal student loan program and expanded Pell Grant spending.===

More free market involvement generally helps the flow of capital. Title IV is a bigger mess than it ever was.

===13. Boosted fuel efficiency standards.===

Did he? I didn't notice.

===14. Increased support for veterans.===

In some ways. Still plenty of vet complaining about benefits.

===15. Credit card reforms===

Too vague. What specific regulation are you lauding?

===16. Path to closing dirtiest power plants.===

Routine.

===17. Lilly Ledbetter Fair Play Act.===

Bad idea, IMO.

===18. Food Safety Modernization Act increased FDA ability to be sure food is safe to eat.===

Routine stuff.

===19. Expanded wilderness and watershed protections.===

Fine.

===20. Expanded hate crime protections.===

I don't like hate crime legislation. We should punish acts, not thoughts.

===21. Cracked down on for profit degree mill colleges.===

Actually, he really didn't. He wants to and the way he wants to do so is stupid, but thankfully he hasn't actually gotten his finger into this pie that he knows nothing about.

Originally posted by sh76
Like any President, he's done some good things. I wouldn't give him a zero, but I'd give him maybe a 4.

===1. Passed health care reform.===

Reform for the sake of reform isn't always good. The jury's very much still out on the ACA and leaning towards the negative.

===2. Passed a stimulus package.===

Very unclear whether it did what it was supposed t ...[text shortened]... , but thankfully he hasn't actually gotten his finger into this pie that he knows nothing about.

At the end of the day, all he can celebrate is killing Bin Laden.

Nothing has really changed otherwise. The same economic disaster that occurred when Obama came to power is still lurking right around the corner.

What I don't understand about Obamacare, is that we were sold the notion that it would cover about 30 million who had no coverage. Then you see them celebrate as under 10 million sign up, after about that many were forced to sign up after their previous health care policy dumped them.

The only difference that I can see is that the IRS is now in control of seeing to it that we pay our health care taxes, that corporate America now sets for us.

Originally posted by whodey
At the end of the day, all he can celebrate is killing Bin Laden.

Nothing has really changed otherwise. The same economic disaster that occurred when Obama came to power is still lurking right around the corner.

What I don't understand about Obamacare, is that we were sold the notion that it would cover about 30 million who had no coverage. Then you s ...[text shortened]... ntrol of seeing to it that we pay our health care taxes, that corporate America now sets for us.

Oh Whoders you have been shafted! If the businessmen don't get you the feds and lawyers will!

Originally posted by whodey
This is how liberals think. They know that if they tell us the truth in terms of what is "best", we would not vote for them. So they lie to get elected and then find the "political courage" to stab us all in the back.

Democracy has come down to lying to get elected. There is nothing democratic about it.

Democracy ?? We live in a Plutarchy. The last Dem who spoke the truth was Al Gore (ironic is it not) when he said we needed to put the surplus funds from the Clinton admin into an untouchable fund to be used for Social Security payments only. And he lost the election !

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
you do understand that everything anyone promises, ever, comes with an implied "unless crap happens"?

you are like a child that throws a tantrum because his father promised he would come to his stupid recital and didn't because he had to go into surgery.


don't whine that obama broke his promise. figure out if he could have avoided it, if he broke ...[text shortened]... sentences, just so people like you wouldn't have yet another pointless thing to complain about.

I would think it unlikely that Obama was stupid enough to believe he was going to lower the average household's annual health cost by $2500. And I also think it is unlikely that he was stupid enough we'd be able to keep our health plan if we liked it.

I think in is is unreasonable to even entertain the idea that he wasn't lying. I would expect any conversation among grown ups to start with the understanding that Obama lied.

But if by chance he wasn't lying, that's not much better because the alternative is to presume he is so incredibly stupid that the laws of economics would somehow not apply.

Originally posted by techsouth
I would think it unlikely that Obama was stupid enough to believe he was going to lower the average household's annual health cost by $2500. And I also think it is unlikely that he was stupid enough we'd be able to keep our health plan if we liked it.

I think in is is unreasonable to even entertain the idea that he wasn't lying. I would expect any con ...[text shortened]... ive is to presume he is so incredibly stupid that the laws of economics would somehow not apply.

Most of the laws of economics don't apply of course. They are mostly nonsense.

Originally posted by finnegan
Most of the laws of economics don't apply of course. They are mostly nonsense.

Which laws are you talking about?

I suppose you wake up every morning and have no idea how much a Big Mac costs or should cost? 50 cents or $1000 dollars are both equally reasonable if we don't acknowledge economics has some component of predictability.

Hmm. Let's force insurance companies to take customers who have very expensive pre-existing conditions at the same price as everyone else. I wonder if that will cause rates to go up for everyone? I guess if there are no laws of economics we have no way to predict.

Hmm. Let's force everyone who buys a home to buy one with 3000 square feet. I wonder if the average home price would go up or go down? No way to even make a guess without resorting to nonsense.

Originally posted by caissad4
Democracy ?? ". The last Dem who spoke the truth was Al Gore (ironic is it not) when he said we needed to put the surplus funds from the Clinton admin into an untouchable fund to be used for Social Security payments only. And he lost the election !

There was no actual surplus during the Clinton administration. There was a "budget surplus". That means that if everything stayed as it was for the next ten years there was projected a budget surplus or about 1 trillion $. None of this actually happened.

Al Gore wasn't the first to try to "mingle" Social Security funds with those of the general budget. FDR when SS was first passed tried the same thing, but was shot down. SCOTUS ruled that the tax supporting SS was not an income tax, but an excise, thus Constitutional.

Clearly, even then SS was not fundamentally sound, as has proved to be the case. As people live longer, its actuarial assumptions become more unrealistic.

"Democracy ??"

Democracy is a part of our government, but we aren't supposed to be a Democracy.

"We live in a plutarchy (sic)" I think you mean plutocracy.

If that were really true, populism would not be so powerful a force in politics. Many argue that the takers in our Society dominate politics, forcing politicians on both sides to pander to them.

Originally posted by techsouth
Which laws are you talking about?

I suppose you wake up every morning and have no idea how much a Big Mac costs or should cost? 50 cents or $1000 dollars are both equally reasonable if we don't acknowledge economics has some component of predictability.

Hmm. Let's force insurance companies to take customers who have very expensive pre-existing cond ...[text shortened]... e home price would go up or go down? No way to even make a guess without resorting to nonsense.

Folks who want to bury economics clearly want their brand to survive, a brand which justifies and supports their collectivism.

Originally posted by normbenign
Folks who want to bury economics clearly want their brand to survive, a brand which justifies and supports their collectivism.

They'll pretend laws of economics don't exists if such a premise bolsters their current argument.

But in the next conversation they're likely to try to cite laws of economics if that tact works better in the next conversation.

Clearly they have no desire to actually understand what's happening in the world. Or more precisely, their desire to support their dogma supersedes their desire to understand how things work.

Originally posted by techsouth
They'll pretend laws of economics don't exists if such a premise bolsters their current argument.

But in the next conversation they're likely to try to cite laws of economics if that tact works better in the next conversation.

Clearly they have no desire to actually understand what's happening in the world. Or more precisely, their desire to support their dogma supersedes their desire to understand how things work.

I didn't say they don't exist.

Originally posted by normbenign
Folks who want to bury economics clearly want their brand to survive, a brand which justifies and supports their collectivism.

Not really. People do want to replace the current failed models with something closer to an account of the world we actually occupy.

See the relevant thread titled "Economics is like a lobotomy" - a phrase used by an economics student, not me.

Originally posted by caissad4
Democracy ?? We live in a Plutarchy. The last Dem who spoke the truth was Al Gore (ironic is it not) when he said we needed to put the surplus funds from the Clinton admin into an untouchable fund to be used for Social Security payments only. And he lost the election !

Now, now, Obama promised that you would be able to keep your health care and not raise your taxes as well.

I think for the most part that promises are completely valueless since there is no expectation for them to keep them, and all break them.

When listening to our lawmakers, we might as well be watching Charlie Brown. When they talk all we hear is Wa, wa, wa, wa, wa, wa.